Autism in women and gender stereotypes

[Z0rr0]

Came across this really interesting paper from 2016 looking at how ASC (autism spectrum conditions) present differently in women, and how girls and women become expert at masking their conditions.
link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10803-016-2872-8

There's a section at the end on 'forging an identity as a woman with ASD' which concerns young women’s perceptions of social gender stereotypes that they had felt pressured to, struggled to, and at times, refused to fulfil.
It says: Young women’s opinions varied regarding gender-stereotypical roles. Whilst some openly rejected gender-based theories of behaviour: “[I don’t] really accept the validity of gender stereotypes” or ‘status quo’ behaviours...
And it talks about how several were sexually abused in relationships because they adopted passive personalities and didn't know how to say 'no' and also how they struggled to build friendships with neurotypical girls because their conversation and small talk was so nuanced with expressions they struggled to read, that they preferred friendships with boys who were more straightforward:
Another remembered feeling intimidated by neurotypical teenage girls and had experienced rejection for being seen as “one iota different from them”. In contrast, a number of young women said they felt more at ease in their friendships with males. This was not thought to be related to biological sex, but to society ‘allowing’ men to be more straightforward, and this being a communication style that suited women with ASC better:

“I just feel so much more comfortable with men because they’re more, you can take them at face value and its not that fear of them judging you or having alternative motives and thoughts and they kind of say things straight.”

Which strikes me as a clue to why ASD girls might be seeking to transition to boys, so they can express themselves in a way that suits them, in a more 'male' fashion, but without the pressure of being hit on by the boys.

The more I read about this the more it describes my middle daughter. The minute she could speak she rejected anything “girly” dolls were replaced by a obsession with dinosaurs. From age 5 she dressed entirely in boys clothes. Personality wise she is the “difficult one” she’s very up and down. Academically brilliant taught herself to read at age 3 gifted artist. Now she’s 14.

She cannot abide anyone touching her. She’s worn tights and a skirt at school because you get called a lesbian but this year has asked for trousers. No make up clothes are unisex and baggy. Underwear is sport bras.

She has one best friend who is very like her. She hardly goes out sits in her room online. Says she’s hates people and being social. Hates any sort of attention and spotlight at school for example we aren’t allowed to go to prize giving.

I think I’ve always known she’s not NT and have just embraced and accepted it and her, she did tell me at age 6 she wanted to be a boy and i could have pushed all the trans route but now she says she doesn’t want to be a boy she’s just not a typical girl.

I have 3 daughters and only one is what you would call gender conforming ie into the pink glitter make up princess stuff. I wonder how many girls actually are or whether it is just forced upon them at such at early age by parents and society?

I am autistic, not diagnosed but I don’t need one. As a child I always preferred males and male company. I felt more like a boy than a girl. Also girls often took a dislike to me. I never wanted to actually be a boy however.

I definitely developed a passive personality, from a young age when someone important to me approved of something I did, I went to extremes to do more of it. For example my dad and step mum always made a big thing about how generous I was, so I went out of my way to be even more generous. They made a fuss of how smart I was at school, so I worked even harder.

Whenever I met someone I liked, I would find out what they were interested in and make those interests mine too. So if they liked a certain band, that’s what I would then like too. If they had a certain hobby, I learned that hobby too.

As an adult this resulted in me eventually realising I felt I had no identity of my own. All my likes and dislikes and personality aspects were all dictated by other people. It was frightening, to not know what I actually did and didn’t like.

I ended up in an emotionally abusive relationship where he quickly worked out I would do anything to make him happy, that he could pick arguments and I would apologise profusely for things I hadn’t even done just to make him happy again.

I’ve also sadly had sexual abuse as a child which I believe happened because I was autistic and unable to see any danger signs before it was too late, also unable to say no.

Nowadays instead of being passive, I just don’t socialise at all. My life is my husband, children, mother and brother. Rather than risk being abused, rejected and abandoned, I stay where I am safe.

I have become much more ‘feminine’ now I am in my thirties, love long dresses and have got to grips with a bit of makeup, very basic and natural however. I enjoy being female now, whereas I flat out refused to wear makeup or dressed right up until I hit my 30’s.

This is a good book about girls with autism.

www.amazon.co.uk/Aspergirls-Empowering-Females-Asperger-Syndrome/dp/1849058261?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

I have met Robyn Steward who is one of the authors of the paper a couple of times. She is actually autistic and has done a lot of work about autistic women and girls. She has just written a book about periods for girls with autism.

There is more information out there now than there was when I was little but there is still a lot of misunderstanding. There is almost nothing on pregnancy.

I work in a girls secondary school and I think the issue of girls with autism wanting to transition is one that we haven't got to grips with.
Gender sterotypes seem to have become so narrow for young people now, that if you step outside them in any way, there is the suggestion that you may be 'trans.' I think once some of the girls start looking into the trans issue online, it feels like there's a club they can belong to. A way of explaining why they don't fit in. They fall down the rabbit hole and end up on a pathway towards transitioning that may well not end in the peace of mind they seek.

www.jkp.com/jkpblog/2018/09/spectrum-women/
This is another book by/about autistic women that might be of interest.

I think maybe if more girls were diagnosed they might understand their themselves better and avoid some of the emotional difficulties it brings.

I worry for the future of my DD who clearly has ASD, as agreed by her paediatrician, school, autism worker, nursery etc. But can't get diagnosed because, in the words of her paediatrician, she doesn't tick the boxes of a test which is made for boys.

Boys who mask don't tick the boxes either.
The dsm criteria arent set up to diagnose autism - they will diagnose autism-plus-distress-minus-masking

Which is rubbish because masking is a risk factor for suicidality.
It's extremely unsatisfying currently.

Gender sterotypes seem to have become so narrow for young people now, that if you step outside them in any way, there is the suggestion that you may be 'trans.' I think once some of the girls start looking into the trans issue online, it feels like there's a club they can belong to. A way of explaining why they don't fit in
I agree that if teens don’t fit in because of autism or whatever, they will welcome any explanation of why they’re being rejected. I’m a masculine woman and if I’d been given a reason to explain why I was being ostracised I would have grabbed it, especially if it was a route to being accepted.

@keepingbees

I think maybe if more girls were diagnosed they might understand their themselves better and avoid some of the emotional difficulties it brings.

I worry for the future of my DD who clearly has ASD, as agreed by her paediatrician, school, autism worker, nursery etc. But can't get diagnosed because, in the words of her paediatrician, she doesn't tick the boxes of a test which is made for boys.

I don’t know how old she is but if she’s not pubertal yet it might be worth trying to get her assessed when she is (perhaps via private assessment, expensive tho ☹️)

It took ages to get my eldest diagnosed with ASD (he has an ‘extremely spikey profile’) and when it finally happened (aged 13) and I did the short course for parents of newly diagnosed children, every other parent on the course was the parent of a daughter.

Whether this was due to the way the test is written or the way younger girls mask, I don’t know but it definitely wasn’t coincidence because the professionals running the course told us that it’s almost all parents of boys on the course they run for under 11s and almost all girls on the courses they run for over 11s!

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong We did the parents post diagnosis course at the private clinic where we had DD assessed (she has since also been diagnosed on the NHS). She's 4. We were the only parents of a girl. Interesting that when they were so much older, you had all girls.

We're also now doing the NHS post diagnosis course for parents of children under five. Out of six sets of parents how many are parents of girls? You guessed it. Just us.

Dd is autistic, she struggled in her teen years and the above does reflect what I observed except she knew her gender, that wasn't at stake (she also knew she's bisexual but isn't that bothered about relationships unless it's right, her relationships have been with men but the quirky less masculine type). I would never generalise - if gender dysphoria is something you cannot control like sexuality then society cannot change the way you feel.

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong thanks, she's only 7 and the paediatrician said pretty much what you have. To be fair they said they should really discharge her but have kept her on with a view to re doing the ADOS in a couple of years when she's a better chance of failing it.
Which seems a crazy system. We're not looking to label her but she needs help, and we as parents need help. She doesn't sleep and never has, has huge sensory issues, constant meltdowns and we're struggling to cope. She also needs support at school which she's missing out on. They say early intervention is key but then you can't get it.
I would hope she can access some help before the teen years otherwise I really think there will be big problems.
Her brother was diagnosed aged 8 and has nowhere near the problems she has. He's higher functioning but never masked it.
It's a poor system that doesn't recognise this.
I hope your daughter is doing ok and you're getting some support now.

[quote princesshollysmagicalwand]@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong We did the parents post diagnosis course at the private clinic where we had DD assessed (she has since also been diagnosed on the NHS). She's 4. We were the only parents of a girl. Interesting that when they were so much older, you had all girls.

We're also now doing the NHS post diagnosis course for parents of children under five. Out of six sets of parents how many are parents of girls? You guessed it. Just us. [/quote]
You are our opposites!

My son is 20 now and it definitely feels like the work everyone put in paid off.

The best thing we ever got was a similar course for parents but run by the occupational therapists. It’s was very helpful.

[quote keepingbees]@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong thanks, she's only 7 and the paediatrician said pretty much what you have. To be fair they said they should really discharge her but have kept her on with a view to re doing the ADOS in a couple of years when she's a better chance of failing it.
Which seems a crazy system. We're not looking to label her but she needs help, and we as parents need help. She doesn't sleep and never has, has huge sensory issues, constant meltdowns and we're struggling to cope. She also needs support at school which she's missing out on. They say early intervention is key but then you can't get it.
I would hope she can access some help before the teen years otherwise I really think there will be big problems.
Her brother was diagnosed aged 8 and has nowhere near the problems she has. He's higher functioning but never masked it.
It's a poor system that doesn't recognise this.
I hope your daughter is doing ok and you're getting some support now. [/quote]
Sorry, I must’ve been unnecessarily confusing - my ASD ‘baby’ is a boy, but a rare teenage diagnosis. He was a very good masker until he was about 11, when it all got too much and the wheels came off. He’s 20 now and things are much better than they were.

Is it possible to go any side steps to access support? My son was diagnosed with dyspraxia first, then ADHD, then ASD later on. Fairly typical fo have a cluster of two or more diagnosis.

Re: sensory issues, the best help we ever had was via a course for parents run by occupational therapists - it helped so much, learning to identify and manage the environment in a way that soothed his sensory perceptions, rather than exacerbate them (I even redecorated his room, swapping out colours that didn’t work for his brain).

Harder to do that stuff out of the home, of course, but it did give me a lot of insight re: how to pick my battles, with both my son and the school.

It’s a shitty system, and as with many systems, particularly shit for girls ☹️

Also problems with some make up. Can't stand the feel of lipstick. So much of pps is relateable.

@DCIRozHuntley

Probably some of the things you are describing could fit with a diagnosis of ASC. Coming to this years later and looking back at one of own children who did manage primary.

What was protective was encouraging interests. Does your DD have any special interests (girls with ASC often doubt have the traditional tech/machinery obsessions). Minority sports like orienteering, climbing, roller derby are often good places to find other quirky kids. She might want to do cubs or scouts (though might be disappointed that boys fall out due to emotional/psychological entanglements as well). If she really dislikes being in groups - encouraging her other interests as much as you can.

@Gwynfluff yes, she has been a Beaver and is now a Cub and does have a couple of sporty hobbies too. She was meant to start a Lego club too but that's all on hold with lockdown. That was my feeling also - don't put all her eggs in one school-shaped basket. Thanks for your post

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong
No it was my mistake sorry, I don't know why I thought girl when you clearly said boy!

I'm not sure what other things we can access or how we go about seeking occupational therapy. Once they pass the ADOS everyone seems to wash their hands of you.
The paediatrician told us to self refer to a local autism support place that gives you a worker, but they've been involved before and couldn't really offer us any advice beyond what we were already doing.
We've also had sleep solutions involvement and they couldn't suggest anything either.

My daughter was diagnosed at 10. I wanted the diagnosis before senior school.
School is exhausting for her, what with sensory overload and social issues. She is very social and desires a best friend but is often happiest playing tag with the boys. She says the girls just want to walk around talking whereas she needs that physical release.
She knows she can't be a boy and has no desire to be. I praise her for challenging gender stereotypes. She had just had a groovy short haircut, shaved on one side and the back. I'm dreading someone call her a boy in September so I am trying to think of a good comeback. The best one is that her old teacher has very much the same hairstyle and she is a woman. My daughter's haircare has been a source of sensory overload for most of her life so this new haircut is liberating for her. She even said she felt more confident and we got out a for a bike ride.
There are so many strategies that can be put in place for autistic kids, the diagnosis is really important for that. And for her it helps her be stronger in her identity and hopefully less prone to all the trans ideology out there. It only takes one peer to say you must be trans because you look like a boy and that would be enough to create a super focus for an autistic girl.
Puberty and autism can be even more stressful and I'm preparing for this now. I'm on a great parenting Facebook group for autistic girls which is a fab source of strategies that you don't find in books yet. There is a mixture of GC and trans supporting parents and this issue is being debated more.

@corlan

I work in a girls secondary school and I think the issue of girls with autism wanting to transition is one that we haven't got to grips with. Gender sterotypes seem to have become so narrow for young people now, that if you step outside them in any way, there is the suggestion that you may be 'trans.' I think once some of the girls start looking into the trans issue online, it feels like there's a club they can belong to. A way of explaining why they don't fit in. They fall down the rabbit hole and end up on a pathway towards transitioning that may well not end in the peace of mind they seek.

I think you are right about the gender stereotypes.

It's interesting to me that some people think of things like glitter or unicorns being part of being "girly". Growing up in the 70s/early 80s, I was always a tomboy, but I had friends who were considered girly. There was still no glitter or unicorns, they might have been more interested in dolls, or dressing up. When we played games they wanted to play the girl, not a boy. But basically they wore the same clothes as the rest of us 90% of the time, and played Star Wars or GI Joe or climbed trees and made forts and rode bikes around. Everyone wore hand me downs a lot of the time, often from brothers, and everyone, even the tomboys, wore dresses and tights to picture day and the Christmas concert.

[quote Gwynfluff]@DCIRozHuntley

Probably some of the things you are describing could fit with a diagnosis of ASC. Coming to this years later and looking back at one of own children who did manage primary.

What was protective was encouraging interests. Does your DD have any special interests (girls with ASC often doubt have the traditional tech/machinery obsessions). Minority sports like orienteering, climbing, roller derby are often good places to find other quirky kids. She might want to do cubs or scouts (though might be disappointed that boys fall out due to emotional/psychological entanglements as well). If she really dislikes being in groups - encouraging her other interests as much as you can.[/quote]
Roller derby is awfully pro-trans though. I'd worry about that.

It’s very alt, but very accepting of quirky kids and just stick to training

@ keepingbees The Lorna Wing/Centre of the national autism society specialise in diagnosing girls and women, with more subtle assessments that pick up on the female presentation. I think you can be referred to one of their two units down South from across the UK so it'd be worth taking a look at their website.

Not RTFT sorry.

I know that autism is under diagnosed in girls.

But I don't have autism and relate to the blurb in the OP.

I'll read the rest now.