Autism in women and gender stereotypes

[Z0rr0]

Came across this really interesting paper from 2016 looking at how ASC (autism spectrum conditions) present differently in women, and how girls and women become expert at masking their conditions.
link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10803-016-2872-8

There's a section at the end on 'forging an identity as a woman with ASD' which concerns young women’s perceptions of social gender stereotypes that they had felt pressured to, struggled to, and at times, refused to fulfil.
It says: Young women’s opinions varied regarding gender-stereotypical roles. Whilst some openly rejected gender-based theories of behaviour: “[I don’t] really accept the validity of gender stereotypes” or ‘status quo’ behaviours...
And it talks about how several were sexually abused in relationships because they adopted passive personalities and didn't know how to say 'no' and also how they struggled to build friendships with neurotypical girls because their conversation and small talk was so nuanced with expressions they struggled to read, that they preferred friendships with boys who were more straightforward:
Another remembered feeling intimidated by neurotypical teenage girls and had experienced rejection for being seen as “one iota different from them”. In contrast, a number of young women said they felt more at ease in their friendships with males. This was not thought to be related to biological sex, but to society ‘allowing’ men to be more straightforward, and this being a communication style that suited women with ASC better:

“I just feel so much more comfortable with men because they’re more, you can take them at face value and its not that fear of them judging you or having alternative motives and thoughts and they kind of say things straight.”

Which strikes me as a clue to why ASD girls might be seeking to transition to boys, so they can express themselves in a way that suits them, in a more 'male' fashion, but without the pressure of being hit on by the boys.

[ShinyFootball]

'NonnyMouse that’s such a good point. I do think that a lot of my aversion to ‘girly’ things is due to sensory difficulties. I remember crying when my mum put me in a party dress that had a net petticoat. It was like being scratched with sandpaper. There are a lot of clothes that I can’t wear. I have a lot of difficulty with make up too.'

Girls/ women's clothes are uncomfy though.

Scratchy, nasty, clingy, sweaty etc. Tights! Jesus. Awful.

It's uncomfortable and restrictive being female. It's normal to fight against it.

Not sure where I'm going here.

But so far I agree with the people who have autism. But I don't have that AFAIK.

not sure if these posts are helpful, sorry! Have had cider.

[ShinyFootball]

Oh also I used to do counting a lot, paving stones, they have to be even

I have difficulty with female friendships in the, dunno. I'm good at making friends but poor at the emotional stuff. I have a lot of male friends and always have.

Science degree.

I'm in my late 40s. A lot of people say my brother is maybe autistic etc.

Emotion stuff I'm bad at.

Interesting.

I'm just me though. Been a feminist since before I knew the word as I didn't appreciate the way my personality was supposed to be determined by my sex.

Hmmmmm.
Interesting.

[ShinyFootball]

Thinking about my girls as well here.

They have many of my traits.

[ShinyFootball]

Oh also obsessional behaviour.

And I've had more or less the same lunch every day for 30 years.

Do I need to look at this for my girls a bit more, or does this sound normal to you? It's normal to me!

[Z0rr0]

I can't answer that @ShinyFootball. It does read to me like you might be on the spectrum. I mentioned it to my DD who I think might have traits and she said it sounded like her but she didn't want to read the study. I think it freaked her out a bit. She said she was just her and she didn't want a diagnosis. I'm happy to leave it at that for now. It's just the social thing where she struggles a bit but she has good friends. As long as she's doing ok and doesn't want to know I guess that's fine.

[Vodkacranberryplease]

It's the same with ADHD. Untidy, disorganised, like straightforward communication without games and with an element of missing social cues. Plus various other things depending on adhd type. All things that do not fit in with being a nice quiet girl playing skipping at lunch time. I can imagine a young girl would rather be a boy than live the kind of constrained lives girls do. Or at least they think they would.

[NonnyMouse1337]

ShinyFootball if you or your daughters are doing fine and coping well with life, not having meltdowns or shutdowns, or feeling overwhelmed with anxiety, depression etc then you probably don't need to pursue a diagnosis. If you're happy as you are, there's no real need to go down the route of a formal diagnosis.

If you find your daughters are starting to struggle at school or expressing frustration or confusion about why they can't make / keep friends and you get the sense they are searching for answers and feeling like a failure for not being like others, then it's a good idea to maybe explore further. Similarly if you are grappling for issues and looking for answers, then it might be worth asking for an assessment. It sounds like you're content and happy with yourself.

There's no real support for adults with ASD anyway, so a diagnosis won't 'solve' anything but it might help with better understanding of oneself and finding more positive ways of dealing with issues.
I think children with ASD might have better support, but I don't know much about this area.

For me, I felt like a failure throughout my life and this affected my relationships, my mental health. I just really needed to know, and I find the diagnosis has had a positive impact on my life as I now try to work within my limitations and not push myself, although I still forget at times and then have a shutdown.

[wellbehavedwomen]

@ShinyFootball

Oh also obsessional behaviour.

And I've had more or less the same lunch every day for 30 years.

Do I need to look at this for my girls a bit more, or does this sound normal to you? It's normal to me!

I think it sounds like it might be worth investigating. I know a lot of women with ASD, because when my eldest was diagnosed I sought out advice and support from ASD people, and as it's genetic, they often had ASD kids themselves, so we mat at various groups. (I've got ADHD myself, by the way, diagnosed in adult life. I was always very academic, so it was that cliche of being dreamy and disorganised, and missed. Meds were really helpful to me.)

A diagnosis isn't going to change anything, but once you understand what causes difficulties, it's easier to build in strategies, and you're also more understanding and easier on yourself, too.

It's no surprise to me at all that autism and gender dysphoria in the teen years are often linked. I think sometimes that bright autistic kids are less distracted by bullshit, as they don't have a hive mind as most do at that age - and adolescence for girls is hideous. Emotionally, in terms of horribly dramatic and complex and intense peer interaction; physically with so many changes and transitions and actual pain and mess, harder for people with sensory processing problems; and because you start having to cope with unwanted sexual attention. Add in a greater probability of being gay (higher incidence in the ASD population) and gender non-conforming, and there you are.

Most of the adult autistic women I know say that they'd have transitioned, and how grateful they are that it wasn't a thing when they were adolescents.

I do think watchful waiting should be the approach until at least early 20s, to allow people to develop and grow and be who they really are before anything irreversible is done.

[ShinyFootball]

Thank you all for your replies.

I will keep an eye on the girls but it's not something I'd pursue for the sake of it.

This has been a really interesting thread.

[DickKerrLadies]

Untidy, disorganised, like straightforward communication without games and with an element of missing social cues.

Interesting. This could be written about me and my DD.

[Vodkacranberryplease]

@DickKerrLadies The 'good' thing about adhd is that there are meds and they help. Will they make you much more organised etc? No not really. But they help a lot.