Pub changing to 'Gender Neutral' Loos

[Toomie]

My beloved local pub (in normal times a really busy, live music venue) has just announced they are changing the current M and F loos to gender neutral when they reopen.

Both loos have 2 cubicles. The men's also has urinals. The women's loo is immediately opposite the door to the bar/music area. The men's is a little way down a corridor.

Not too much of a worry now, when it will be table service and only a few customers. But when it is (fingers crossed) back to it's normal, lively self, I think this will be shit for women. I can't see many drunk men deciding to walk down the corridor when there is a unisex loo right in front of them. And I suspect the majority of women won't choose to walk down the corridor and use the loo with urinals, unless there's a queue at the first one. Effectively this reduces women's access to toilets as well as presenting the usual privacy and safety issues.

Not sure if they've done it as some sort of Covid measure or if it's a longer term 'inclusivity' thing.

I'm going to pluck up the courage to raise it with the (very sound but take-no-shit) owners and it would be really helpful to have some info to back me up if needed.

I'd really appreciate links to any research or articles about the problem with gender neutral loos in public venues. Preferably short and from left-leaning or neutral sources. A bit of humour would help too

Do they allow children in? If so, they will be exposing female children to men with the cocks out. Can't see parents - or the male customers - being happy with that.

If they reply that girls will only use the (current) female loos, they are admitting that they know that women won't use the men's, and that what gender neutral really means is 'a men's toilet and a mixed sex toilet'

Use the term 'mixed sex' not the euphemistic 'gender neutral' throughout.

A pub that's also a music venue is pretty much the last place that should ever make its loos gender neutral.

I know there is something about the cubicles needing to have floor to ceiling walls and door.

But there are many people on here with all the links who can help

Loads of places in my area (Norfolk) are doing this when they reopen for Covid reasons. Not sure I understand the logic being honest but it’s definitely a “thing”.

Banham Zoo in Norfolk have announced this via their reopening video for example.

They can only claim gender neutral if each toilet is a self contained unit with a handwash basin and sanitary bin (like on trains/aeroplanes), otherwise they are changing them to mixed sex. I would avoid a venue with mixed sex toilets - especially where alcohol is also involved. There are times when women need space away from men and drunken men even more so.

I am all out of humour on this issue, I'm afraid!

I can't think of any reasons why Covid would require gender neutral loos. Want less loos so there's less cleaning required? Doesn't apply since they're keeping both. Want one for people who have Covid and one for those who don't? Then explain how the pub itself is going to work. And so on. It's nonsense.

Piss all over the loo seats is going to achieve, what, exactly ?

I would go an see if they have san bins in what used to be the gents

If not, the urinal plus lack of san bins makes it a male toilet, and therefore they should also provide a female toilet or its pure discrimination , as they are giving a sex save space to men and not women

Making a loo gender neutral can help with Covid organisation if you’re splitting loos by household bubble. It makes sense at the moment as part of a system but it is not ideal and my concern would be not getting them back after.

Can you ask them if they’ve done an impact assessment?

• children using toilets
• conservative religious people
• abuse / violence survivors It doesn’t have to be phrased ‘women’ centric, if you feel it wouldn’t be entirely helpful. The disabled loo shouldn’t become the de facto woman’s toilet.

If they really are gender neutral / mixed sex then they should be...

• floor to ceiling walls & doors - no risk of covert spying / filming
• sinks in each cubicle - what if women need to clean up during their period
• sanitary disposal bins in each cubicle
• removal of urinals in the other toilet - who want’s to see others genitals, esp if minors will be using.
• CCTV monitoring of shared spaces.

If they can’t provide safe neutral/mixed facilities, I believe they’re in breach of Equality Act ‘10. Check, but I would argue they are no longer providing a safe single sex provision.

Put it in an email to the brewery & manager. Nothing sparks interest like a potential legal problem.

COVID is a red herring.

@AuntyFungal post above is excellent, that’s exactly all the points you should be making.

These are all great points

MrsNoah2020
In the daytime it's very family friendly with plenty of free range kids running around so, yes, that's an issue too.
I will use 'mixed sex'. Definitely brings the point home a bit more.

It is a proper community hub, very well loved and they do loads to support local social and environmental projects. I don't want to approach it in any way as a confrontation. Just that they may not have thought it through. I might suggest that they canvas regulars/do a poll before making it a permanent change?

Cross posted - Thanks AuntyFungal. All useful points, I don't think legal threats will go down well though. If anything it might have the opposite effect

So in challenging times these business are discouraging some customers who don’t like these mixed sex facilities. That seems like an excellent choice.

Mixed sex not gender neutral - don’t let them get away with fluffing it all up, they mean men & women & children sharing toilets

Lots of places seem to be pulling this “because Covid” without any real thought or analysis of the impact it could have

Do their staff use the same toilets? If yes, they are breaking the law unless the toilets are totally enclosed.

my concern would be not getting them back after

Absolutely!

Actually I've just picked up on something from previous posts that I hadn't thought about. To be same sex/unisex/gender neutral - whatever - can't be bothered learning they will need sanitary disposal bins in each. These aren't cheap!

Loads of places in my area (Norfolk) are doing this when they reopen for Covid reasons. Not sure I understand the logic being honest but it’s definitely a “thing”.

I’ve forgotten the source now, but some scientists measured who far coronavirus organisms spread when a toilet is flushed and found it was several metres.

I’m struggling to think how turning toilets “gender neutral” would have any impact on this. And as a PP points out, women won’t want to use the gender neutral set that contains urinals (and as long experience has taught us fewer hand washers).

So this “thing” doesn’t meet building regulations, doesn’t help with preventing the spread of infection, and wouldn’t pass any official, non-stonewall equality impact.

I wonder who might be dishing out the advice.

surely one at at a time will be in action.

local national trust loos are one at a time, any loo that is available.

@CrowdedHouseinQuarantine

local national trust loos are one at a time, any loo that is available.

OP has already said that both loos have 2 cubicles, so I am not sure of the relevance of this?

Have seen this at my local English Heritage place for Covid reasons. All the urinals were taped off, every other cubicle taped off, every other sink taped off - I was in what had been the Gents.

Men and women were going in which led to a lot better behaviour of men - or that might just be the English Heritage crowd.

I was actually much happier with this than my previous experience of Gender Neutral loos which has been uniformly negative - either Mens loos exactly the same and Womens now being Gender neutral, or single loos covered in piss.

If the cubicles aren't floor-to-ceiling, and the management haven't carried out a proper risk assessment, they may need to think about their insurance cover. Would their insurers pay up, for example, if something happened (hidden cameras, an attack) and someone sued the pub?

If they don't care that much about safeguarding, they may at least care if these mixed sex toilets affect the business' finances.