Pub changing to 'Gender Neutral' Loos

[Toomie]

My beloved local pub (in normal times a really busy, live music venue) has just announced they are changing the current M and F loos to gender neutral when they reopen.

Both loos have 2 cubicles. The men's also has urinals. The women's loo is immediately opposite the door to the bar/music area. The men's is a little way down a corridor.

Not too much of a worry now, when it will be table service and only a few customers. But when it is (fingers crossed) back to it's normal, lively self, I think this will be shit for women. I can't see many drunk men deciding to walk down the corridor when there is a unisex loo right in front of them. And I suspect the majority of women won't choose to walk down the corridor and use the loo with urinals, unless there's a queue at the first one. Effectively this reduces women's access to toilets as well as presenting the usual privacy and safety issues.

Not sure if they've done it as some sort of Covid measure or if it's a longer term 'inclusivity' thing.

I'm going to pluck up the courage to raise it with the (very sound but take-no-shit) owners and it would be really helpful to have some info to back me up if needed.

I'd really appreciate links to any research or articles about the problem with gender neutral loos in public venues. Preferably short and from left-leaning or neutral sources. A bit of humour would help too

My understanding is that an equality impact assessment is only mandated for public bodies, not a private business.

From what I hear in care homes covid spread was worse with shared toilet/bathrooms. I would say every care home resident should have en suite facilities as standard, but anyway.

I personally would not be using shared toilets at the moment. Whatever sex they were for.

So in effect, men now have all the loos. For many female people, they will not want to walk through the ones with urinals where males in various states of pissedness have their penises out (and the males won't want them there either), and for many female people they will not be keen to use the non urinal provision if there are males using it too.

So women with the privilege of confidence, no trauma history, no disability affecting it, no culture or faith, are able to share the male owned spaces with the males. Other women won't have access to anything.

Score.

These people fucking hate women.

I suspect English heritage has a slightly different crowd to a pub on a friday night tbh.

Like fuck would I be going anywhere with drunk men and no womens toilets.

I had an experience recently in gender neutral toilets in a restaurant, a very drunk man was outside the toilets by the sink. I walked in and he started making comments, and sort of lunged towards me. I ran unto a cubicle and locked it and hid, he continued to make comments from outside the door, standing right by it. I basically just hid in the cubicle till he left, I was actually really scared. Never again. Had other experiences in clubs where groups of men surrounded me and had to hide in the toilets.

Not to mention the state of mens toilets in pubs. Womens arent great but the stench from the mens!

obviously they need to tape off the urinals
just the thought of it,

Both loos have 2 cubicles. The men's also has urinals. The women's loo is immediately opposite the door to the bar/music area. The men's is a little way down a corridor

I suspect this is against the law, and you could cite the 2010 Equalities Act at them, on the ground that there is twice the provision for men as there is for women.

Some pubs have a scheme where there is useful info for any woman being harassed posted in the women's loo: codewords to use with staff, phone numbers, that sort of thing.
Why not have a chat with whoever is in charge and suggest the pub does something similar? They might listen to this as it's about women's safety from men, and doesn't touch on trans 'rights'.

Of course to make it work they'd have to return the loos to single sex.

Useful link here
womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/27/mixed-sex-toilets-model-letter/

it doesnt make any difference how many cubicles there are, there is still only one person allowed in at a time

In the UK there's no such thing as a 'gender neutral' or 'mixed sex' toilet; the two types or toilet any employer or organisation must provide are;
single sex, or
single occupancy.

• Single sex toilets must have cubicles and washbasins. IF they are for men they can include urinals, if they are for women they must include a sanitary waste bin.
• Single occupancy toilets must be a self contained cubicle with floor to ceiling walls and door, a wash basin, and a sanitary waste bin.

Any additional toilets ('gender neutral or mixed sex) must be in addition to these. You cannot legally discriminate against women or disabled people by placing their toilets at a distance or inconvenient location. There are rules about how far employees have to travel to reach a toilet.

Most of the relevant info is in this document;
www2.canterbury.gov.uk/media/253481/sanitaryaccommodation.pdf

I'd be wary of suggesting that they do a poll of regulars, to be honest. You wouldn't have any control of how the question was phrased or how it was conducted, and have little way of knowing which way it would go in reality. If more men reply - the ones who benefit (and perhaps more likely to be 'regulars'?) - you're stuffed. There's also no guarantee all women replying will be aware of all the issues, and a large proportion may vote the other way, especially if it's framed as 'inclusivity'.

Inebriati - do you know where Canterbury’s doc originated from ie local or gov level? Did they take the basic gov advice & then pad it out?

I’ve been in a few new buildings recently where there are mixed loos, with floor to ceiling doors/walls but communal sinks.

I've seen similar info from several county councils but this one is most useful because its all in one place and they included the relevant legislation at the foot of each table.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3004/regulation/20/made

www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/toilets.htm

There's info about toilet design collated here with links to relevant legislation, from page 10 onwards
www.barbourproductsearch.info/CubicleCentre-retail-washroom-guide%20UPDATED%20pdf-file089483.pdf

@LoeliaPonsonby

My understanding is that an equality impact assessment is only mandated for public bodies, not a private business.

Correct. The Equality Act only applies to public bodies (or to private companies if they are carrying out the function of a public body - not the case here).

A single occupancy toilet is a self contained room.
pg 47 - 52.
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/441786/BR_PDF_AD_M2_2015.pdf

Cheers Inebriati

Would love it if a bunch of women armed with shewees descended on the urinals.
Can't see there being any problems with that.

Would love it if a bunch of women armed with shewees descended on the urinals

In my experience the fastest way to get this sort of thing changed is to annoy the men by using what was 'their' toilet.

Of course if they're sufficiently indoctrinated they'll switch the one with urinals back to men only, and leave the women's mixed sex - at which point you have more law levers to apply.

I get the impression places will try this on (because y’know Covid and wokey reasons) and the y’know Covid ones will try to keep them for wokey reasons (‘well noone complained’).

Complain.

Thanks again for the replies.
I spoke to someone today who is pretty sure it's a temporary covid measure in that they are only allowing one person at a time into each loo. So it makes sense to open them both up to either sex.

They know someone who works behind the bar who is mildly perturbed at facilitating this. Visions of people putting their hands up and say please can I go to the loo, Miss?

I also saw that yesterday someone has written a question under their announcement on FB asking if the 'gender neutral' loos are temporary or a permanent change. No answer yet but great to know that I'm not alone in picking this up!

The pub, responsibly, didn't open yesterday but are opening on Wednesday instead.

I'll post back here as and when I find out any more.

Serenity
That's my concern too. However,it would be pretty much impossible to complain initially, if it genuinely is a one in-one out policy with greatly reduced numbers. To be honest, I'd sound like a pedantic twat!

However it could be the case that they are thinking of it as a longer term thing for woke reasons. I will try to find out. I really don't know as it could go either way. Hopefully they will just say 'Don't be daft! We're not letting blokes into the Ladies!'