Just "came out" (as GC) to two friends...

[bluechameleon]

I didn't bring the subject up but when it did come up I went with it. Neither were particularly well informed on the subject but both seemed receptive to the GC POV. I was slightly concerned about Friend1 (gay male) but he was pretty supportive. They did comment on how much I knew about it so I think they thought I was slightly weird, but I feel generally it was positive and I did some good work furthering the cause. Are you all "out" to your friends?

@GCGayDad

I don't think it's mainstream enough, I had no idea about any of this until a few months ago. No one in my circle know anything about it, I've started talking to them and they all appear to agree but with not much interest.

I think this still true for lots of people, I would say mainly because of censorship. omission and distortion in the media. I remember I was out for the day with a female friend who I don't get to spend much time with and she started telling me about GC stuff and her support for it and how she was angry with the Labour Party of which she was a member because of this.

Even though she made some points that I now totally get and agree with, I simply didn't understand it then. I just thought she was making a fuss about a minor issue. It was only after this, quite gradually, that I started noticing things on Twitter, and somehow I came onto here.

I now totally get it and am livid about all the TRA extremism and the dogmatism and the no-platforming and the capture of so many institutions and the simple injustice of it all. I find the dismissal of vulnerable women's concerns and safety especially repugnant, as women in my own family and close friends have suffered from male violence - sexual, emotional and physical - and I know (also from my own childhood) how experience of abuse can have a lifelong effect and needs to be taken seriously.

But even for an intelligent politically aware person, it can take some time to become aware of the issues involved.

Becoming GC has certainly made me much more wary of mainstream "LGBT" culture, though I was already very anti-Pride etc, because of the commercialisation and the focus on identity politics at the expense of much more inportant issues, such as poverty and war and homelessness.

Please tell your friend - I am sure they will appreciate that you thought about what they said. It feels a bit less shouting into the void that way!

My friends know I am GC but I wouldn't mention it at work.

Came out to my best friend last week. Did not go well. I don't think she can critique things objectively as she is so far down the woke route; there are very few grey areas in her thinking, just right and wrong. She couldn't give me a reason as to why drag isnt 'womanface' or why transwomen are acceptable but Rachel Dolezal isn't, she got quite angry and said it just isn't the same thing but she will have to come back to me on why. She said trans people have the highest suicide rate and she didn't want to contribute to it. When I pointed out this was little more than emotional blackmail I think she decided I was a total cow 😔

We are still friends and have chatted since but things are a little bit icy.

It is exhausting and nerve wracking speaking to anyone about it, but even worse seeing people you admire as patriarchal mouthpieces that don't even realise that is what they are.

7Days

Sorry - I phrased that last paragraph poorly.
I don't mean that Pride should look at those things.

I guess what I meant is that when people on FB are going on about Pride and saying it's socially important while at the same time neglecting these other issues is what galls me. The whole thing is so commercialised and so far from anything radical or social justice-oriented like the original Stonewall riots and gay lib movement that I just can't stick it.

Plus it's used by all kinds of politicians and governments and companies to paint themselves as liberal and well-meaning while they are shitting on the rest of society and the world in other ways.

Imagine if your flat earther friend turned on you for having a spherical view.

Why do you need to force your ideas on other people ? Can’t you just live and let live ? Horrible mean spirit

Please tell your friend - I am sure they will appreciate that you thought about what they said. It feels a bit less shouting into the void that way!

Oh, I have - or rather I've told her husband who I've seen more recently. Unfortunately I've moved so I now get to see her even less.

But I guessed another very close female friend would be GC and she is. She and I are glad to have each other to discuss this with. Plus I introduced to her to MumsNet, lol

Ah, I see your point GCGaydad

Yes it's a curse isnt it. A total distraction.

It's hard to make sure your suppliers pay a living wage, or your palm oil is sustainable.

It's easy put a rainbow on your website and donate pocket change.

Emmie it’s got nothing to do with forcing ideas on people. For me with my circle of friends it’s more to do with the fact that I know they don’t really know how much trans activism has changed in the past few years. I think it’s important to shine a light on this so people can make their own decisions with all the correct information. It’s hard to do this when conversations are shut down before they’ve begun when you’re accused of transphobia just for having concerns.

I abhor dogma and pontificating which is exactly why I have such a problem with the current trans rights movement. I would never want to force my opinions in someone or silence them in that way.

Yeah, recently discussed after someone asked why people were attacking JKR. Honestly I knew how it would go but I couldn't not say what I thought. I've been sad since. We're all still friends officially but I feel a burning rage that they just can't see what is happening. That I was linked to "why rad fems are based in white supremacy" and "why don't you do some research with All About Trans" as if I know absolutely nothing because I don't agree with them. These people have kids. Wonderful generally GNC kids and I'm worried what they'll be supporting in their wokeness and I really hope they don't ever have cause for regret. And I'm angry that my daughter will lose her ability to define herself as a human who matters whilst they smile benignly at the work of the lobby group who removed that ability.

I'm angry. I feel like we have this huge gaping difference in how we see the world and I'm sure they feel the same about me and how can we get past that?

I tried to explain that I, like most radfems, support trans people to go about their lives being trans, free from discrimination etc. But I was told that drawing a line between trans and natal women was hateful and that the conversation was best left there.

That’s very sad jasmine. Sometimes I feel like the super woke have skipped a step where they’re trying to walk before they can run. It’s all idealism rather than based on reality.

Although in my group of friends the two of us who are GC are the ones who are consistently the most left-leaning. It’s strange that in this one area people seem to jump automatically to ‘transphobic bigot’ for people who have had consistently liberal views. Like with JKR, her die hard fans who’ve loved her for years think she’s just changed her personality overnight. From ‘lefty-liberal type notorious for her humanitarian work, generosity and being a voice for the marginalised’ to ‘transphobic bigot who needs cancelled’. Where’s the bit where they connect the dots in the middle and think okay I don’t agree with her but maybe there’s a bit more to it than this.

Trying to run before they can walk that should say

Honestly it hasn't occured to me to be "in". I have strong feelings about particularly vulnerable women ( prison, refuges) and about the legal definition of "woman" and if it comes up I will, and do, tell the truth, even at work. The way I do it is by refusing to have the conversation framed as "trans rights" and always bring it back to the rights of women and children.
So, a friend was arguing that post operative trsnswomen should be in women's prisons because they won't attack women. I said that just because some men are not a good fit for men's prisons, that does not mean that women should automatically be imprisoned with men. "You probably won't get sexually assaulted.." is too low a bar for the safeguarding of vulnerable women and I do not accept it.
Just very firmly say " No. I am defending women's rights to dignity and safety from men in accordance with the Equality act. I wish to uphold current law".
My friend said sooner or later it will be illegal to say no to men presenting as women being in women's spaces, but that doesn't stop me saying no.
You don't have to get angry or upset when you talk about it (it's better if you don't) just raise an eyebrow and look incredulous and say " of course women need single sex spaces."
Personally , if someone says "transwomen" I say "man who likes to present as a woman" but that's where I am now. I just won't be forced to lie.

as if I know absolutely nothing because I don't agree with them.

Ah, yes, I have friends like this. They just cannot accept differing viewpoints.

A few people said they didn't know anything about it. It was suggested we supply some suggested reading but was dropped when I asked if I could too.

Honestly if was like I'd murdered a baby. A few people did message me privately to say they agreed so I know I'm not entirely alone. But I feel I need to cut off a huge topic of conversation and concern because it won't be entertained.

I am not out to most. I have various groups of people in my life and it goes like this:

• a bunch of feminist friends who are all more GC than me. Some of them are uncomfortably borderline transphobic, including a knee jerk contempt for the gender non-conforming even when not identifying as trans. A lot of them think all kinds of subtlety and non conformity are just pretentious bollocks. I am comfortable in that group in as far as they're good women and we support each other and I am not afriad to be GC, but I am uncomfortable as I am rather an artsy wanker and some things don't sit right with me. I am particularly concerned that my GC-ness is absolutely NOT phobic of weird or weird looking people and I worry about some of the lines being blurred with these people.

Work - just can't be out. just cannot. Impossible.

Artsy friends - very very mixed - surprising pockets of GC-ness

Family - my father is a biologist. I try to imagine even explaining the TRA position to him and it just makes me laugh.

A young person in my extended family is transitioning and I am very concerned about it in a way that I dare not express. I do not believe her parents are as wary of the institutions who look after young people, as they should be. I do not know what to do for the best as this is not my child. the child's mother quotes all the suicide stuff uncritically. She also says she is "very cis" which is why she has no inner sense of a gender identity. I think, but do not say: or, maybe for you (as for me) there is no such thing?

I have a real tension in my feelings about this. On a political and philosophical level I am quite comfortable with being GC and I believe it is correct. On a personal level, when dealing with individuals, I think compassion sometimes requires one to behave more fuzzily. the thing is, we are dealing with people who, like all of us, are a product of our culture and environment, and if they really have a need somehow to "change gender" (however superfluous and pernicious gender is to me) to be able to make their way in the world, who am I to deny them this? I have props and crutches too. I need things, or "need" things that I would not ideally need and I believe to some extent, in my case, they are the result of a flawed culture interacting with my flawed humanity. Like everyone else, I'm just a person trying to get by and do my best.

However, I am not sure, with young people, what form the kindest path takes. I am not comfortable with me saying nothing gently challenging to or about the young person in my family, but I honestly believe the reality is that I won't help this person if I do "speak out" in any of the ways I can conceive of.

So sorry about this awful ramble. It's complicated and I am not consistent. I am comfortable with being inconsistent though; I believe it's right to think things through with as much truth and rightness as one can, but I also think that sometimes kindness to individuals requires one to shut up.

I wish I knew better how to support women and their interests in this whole thing though. I don't mind inconsistency; I do mind this awful sense of having no agency.

I'm mixed, which is probably a really precarious position to be in. I'm not out at work as I'm fairly sure I'd lose my job.

With friends I'm cautiously out with a few of them. Others I've lost a lot of respect for because they've been very internet wars with me over the issue and our friendship is hanging precariously by a thin thread. My friends are a really mixed bag, some GC, some very scarily TRA and quite a lot just don't really know about the issues. A few "friends" who I think would totally dox me to my employer which makes me extremely wary about anything I say online under my name.

I have commented thanks to men by PM when they raise it, and they've passed my thoughts on anonymously which has stifled a few retorts. I see more GC posts than before on Facebook now though, and Stonewall uk's twitter feed seems to have very few likes and RTs, and I see a lot more GC posts than ever before. It feels like progress.

Yes I get ranty and frequently shut down by the must be kind types...but it’s now got to the point where I can't put up with this any more . It’s the most important issue of the day and even the handmaids need confronting with the Which explains why my social life has gone down the pan. There is nothing more important than defending women’s rights.

Seneless

*So sorry about this awful ramble. It's complicated and I am not consistent. I am comfortable with being inconsistent though; I believe it's right to think things through with as much truth and rightness as one can, but I also think that sometimes kindness to individuals requires one to shut up.

I wish I knew better how to support women and their interests in this whole thing though. I don't mind inconsistency; I do mind this awful sense of having no agency.*

I think you've written a lovely, humane post - it's not an awful ramble. I agree with you that kindness is still important in this whole thing, however strongly we may feel. Or in any controversial situation. That's not the same as telling women to 'be kind' and let their rights be taken. But kindness and consideration are important for all of us, men, women and children. That's something JK Rowling herself made very clear in her comments. (Of course the other side totally ignored or twisted the kind aspects of what she wrote).

I also find the fact of having to keep stumm - because we are worried about losing work or friends - one of the hardest things. I hate not being able to speak up. I guess that's what you mean by lack of agency.

And I hate it when otherwise good people defend or minimise unfairness and abuse - in this and other debates too.