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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Your age is your age, your sex is your sex. Neither can be changed.

87 replies

WindyTown · 01/07/2020 23:06

After reading about the Allison Bailey case today, I was thinking about how someone simply saying they identify as their non biological sex was to be accepted as such without question and how crazy this was.

And it came to me how this could be compared to age. So please hear me out and tell me if it makes no sense. And apologies in advance for going off on a tangent. Blush

There are some people who say that they do not feel their age and feel older than they are or younger than they are etc. And of course that is fine. People can feel how they want and dress and behave how they want provided they are not hurting others.

So an example: A person might say they still feel like they are 20 years old and wish to still go out partying every night; however their age is actually 70 years old. Just because this person “feels” they are 20 years old and demands others accept this as a fact, should everyone accept that their age is 20 despite the fact that their biological age is actually 70?
The answer is no; no one would ever accept their age is 20. Their age is what they were born with, it is a scientific, biological fact. It cannot be changed.
However, no one would object to the 70 year old going out partying every night should they wish to.
But the fact is, a person simply cannot claim to be a certain age based on how they “feel” and demand that others accept this as their age. Their age is a biological truth which cannot be changed and it is what it is. But of course, the 70 year old is free to act as if they were 20 years old should they wish to and no one would give a damn. Just don’t say you are 20 years old when you aren’t.

Just like if a 40 year old biological male demanded to be allowed in to a children’s play centre because he “feels” that he is 10 years old and therefore should be accepted as a child. Yet everyone can see he is not a child; he is a grown, adult man. His mature, adult body is evidence that he is not a child. Yet he is demanding others accept that he is a child because he “feels” he is a child and should be treated as such.
Should he be accepted as a child due to him “feeling” he is a child or do we accept the scientific and biological evidence, as well as what others can clearly see; that he is NOT a child and cannot be allowed in to children’s spaces.

A person is what they are. They are free to act how they want provided they are not hurting anyone; just don’t claim to be something which you biologically and scientifically are not and can never and don’t demand that others accept what is not scientifically and biologically true and never will be true.

(.......And breathe!)

OP posts:
PeterPomegranate · 03/07/2020 11:30

Oops. I quoted the wrong post! Sorry. Will ask for it to be deleted.

PeterPomegranate · 03/07/2020 11:32

@FerventFox

But using that logistic... a 25yo who has a learning disability which means they have the mental age of a 7yo. Should we then turn around and say.. but there 25 and therefore must act 25? Should be say they must go and get a full time job and remove all 24/7 support because they are BIOLOGICALLY 25? Or do we accept that mentally they are not 25 and therefore are treated in a appropriate way to match their mental age? Because there mental age is not quantifiable or tangible we just accept that it does happen to some people due to things outside their control. But if we cannot accept or consider anything that is not physically quantifiable or tangible then we should not be accepting that adults with severe learning disabilities can have a mental age younger then their physical age and therefore you surely belive jts all a act to get support, or not have to work, or get access to funding and retreats etc etc...... Hmm
An adult with severe learning disabilities would not be allowed in the toddler section of the soft play no matter how much they might enjoy it because they would be too big to play safely there with young children. They would need their own spaces to enjoy soft play.
merrymouse · 03/07/2020 11:40

FerventFox is conflating two completely different protected characteristics, age and disability.

PheasantPlucker1 · 03/07/2020 12:22

How is it possible to live as a gender?

Whe a male claims they feel and live as a woman, what do they mean by that?

These statements get made endlessly as a reason why male transpeople should have access to female spaces, but no one, ever, has been able to explain what they mean by it.

Missillusioned · 03/07/2020 12:35

It really pisses me off when people say you shouldn't define women by their genitals.

It is my genitals and my reproductive system that makes me a woman. Nothing else. I don't identify as a woman. I wear trousers, I work in a factory with men. I have male friends. But none of that is going to prevent sex discrimination on the basis of my reproductive system. None of that stopped me getting pushed out of a job following the birth of my child. None of that stopped rapey men making advances on me as a teen. None of it makes me capable of playing football on a men's team.

I am short and small built. No matter how I identify I will be treated as a woman. And my female body puts me at a physical disadvantage in certain tasks.

OldCrone · 03/07/2020 13:32

I was clumsily posing that gender is lived, not determined, and influences how we are treated and who we become.

You seem to be confusing 'gender' with personality. Gender is imposed on us by society, according to our sex, as merrymouse has explained. We do not live as a gender, although each of us will conform or not conform to the stereotypes for our sex to different degrees, depending on our personalities.

Unfortunately, other people will treat us as they see fit, regardless of our own personal perception of ourselves and our personalities. A rapist still viewed this transman as a woman.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-41614755

DuesToTheDirt · 03/07/2020 13:49

Wow, that Canadian man up-thread living as a six year old girl is beyond bizarre. How on earth did he find an adoptive family?

Bananabixfloof · 03/07/2020 14:08

@DuesToTheDirt

Wow, that Canadian man up-thread living as a six year old girl is beyond bizarre. How on earth did he find an adoptive family?
Ohh umm well, it appears to be about sex. If you break down the name into three separate words that might give you a clue?
Love51 · 03/07/2020 14:16

I don't find the age analogy helpful, because, in keeping with everyone else here, I change my age on an annual basis.
Race or ethnicity would surely be a closer analogy. I've never been a man and I've never been south east Asian. I've lived with men, and I've lived in South East Asia, but I'm a Caucasian woman.

Abhannmor · 03/07/2020 14:38

Indeed. Or the health implications of a false sex. Women have a stronger immune system. If you were born with a Y chromosome and you get very sick with Covid 19 is it sensible to tell the doctors that you are a woman?

merrymouse · 03/07/2020 14:43

I don't find the age analogy helpful, because, in keeping with everyone else here, I change my age on an annual basis.

Yes, but your age changes regardless of your identity, and you have no control over your age. No under 18 year old is allowed to buy cigarettes, regardless of any other protected characteristics.

I think race is less helpful, because the differences between people of different races are largely cosmetic, and the way we group race doesn't have much logic. When somebody says they are Caucasian, what they mean is that to their knowledge all their recent ancestors came from a particular part of the world. That doesn't mean much.

Racism is obviously real - people see race. However race is just inherited appearance traits shared by people whose ancestors remained together during a particular period in history.

Michelleoftheresistance · 03/07/2020 16:00

How on earth did he find an adoptive family?

I'm afraid that individual didn't. if you look up articles in mainstream press what they describe that they have is sex partners who join in the sex based games in which the person plays the role of a child as part of a consensual sex life with their partners who play the role of parent/guardians.

What people do in their own homes, etc etc. But under a law that you are legally what you identify as with access to the same rights and same resources, I don't see how a law that allowed you to identify your sex and enjoy your authentic identity wouldn't equally allow this individual to identify their age and enjoy their authentic identity.

If I explain any further I risk deletion. But in all cases, other people's rights not to be used as non consenting props and context for adult male sexual experiences needs to be considered. Because it is inevitable that for a percentage, this is what is happening. How large that percentage is open to debate; also how much women and children should be expected to suck up being used in this way to allow those innocent and sincere to live as they wish.

It isn't a situation in which everyone's rights are equally protected.

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