Your age is your age, your sex is your sex. Neither can be changed.

[WindyTown]

After reading about the Allison Bailey case today, I was thinking about how someone simply saying they identify as their non biological sex was to be accepted as such without question and how crazy this was.

And it came to me how this could be compared to age. So please hear me out and tell me if it makes no sense. And apologies in advance for going off on a tangent.

There are some people who say that they do not feel their age and feel older than they are or younger than they are etc. And of course that is fine. People can feel how they want and dress and behave how they want provided they are not hurting others.

So an example: A person might say they still feel like they are 20 years old and wish to still go out partying every night; however their age is actually 70 years old. Just because this person “feels” they are 20 years old and demands others accept this as a fact, should everyone accept that their age is 20 despite the fact that their biological age is actually 70?
The answer is no; no one would ever accept their age is 20. Their age is what they were born with, it is a scientific, biological fact. It cannot be changed.
However, no one would object to the 70 year old going out partying every night should they wish to.
But the fact is, a person simply cannot claim to be a certain age based on how they “feel” and demand that others accept this as their age. Their age is a biological truth which cannot be changed and it is what it is. But of course, the 70 year old is free to act as if they were 20 years old should they wish to and no one would give a damn. Just don’t say you are 20 years old when you aren’t.

Just like if a 40 year old biological male demanded to be allowed in to a children’s play centre because he “feels” that he is 10 years old and therefore should be accepted as a child. Yet everyone can see he is not a child; he is a grown, adult man. His mature, adult body is evidence that he is not a child. Yet he is demanding others accept that he is a child because he “feels” he is a child and should be treated as such.
Should he be accepted as a child due to him “feeling” he is a child or do we accept the scientific and biological evidence, as well as what others can clearly see; that he is NOT a child and cannot be allowed in to children’s spaces.

A person is what they are. They are free to act how they want provided they are not hurting anyone; just don’t claim to be something which you biologically and scientifically are not and can never and don’t demand that others accept what is not scientifically and biologically true and never will be true.

(.......And breathe!)

I think it’s a shame men and women can’t be as masculine or as feminine as they like ...... without feeling the need to be defined as man or woman.

I can cope with the first part. Fill your boots: be as 'masculine' or 'feminine' as you wish (it's all gender bollocks), whatever your sex.

However, there's an absolute necessity for people to be defined as men or women. If there are no men and — more importantly to this debate – no women, where does that leave women's rights, women's sport, women's anything?

people always look for ways to play fast and lose dont they!

@Winesalot the point is it isn’t a simple fact like how long you’ve been on the earth - it’s complex with regard to what counts as ‘male’ or ‘female’ when people may be both or neither.
And overarching that is that gender goes way beyond ‘sex’ - so that regardless of your genitals - if you live life as a man or as a woman you will experience life differently. You will be treated differently. But it’s not your genitalia-(most people won’t get to to see that) it’s how you are raised, and how you internalise and externalise your sexual identity - and that is gender. That will determine how you are treated.

I think your analogy touches on something very important - a refusal to face and accept the "facts of life". A delusional with to deny reality. And a demand that others' join in.

"delusional wish"

But it’s not your genitalia-(most people won’t get to to see that) it’s how you are raised, and how you internalise and externalise your sexual identity - and that is gender. That will determine how you are treated

The babies aborted and the baby girls dumped on trash heaps to die after birth never get to Express their gender. One might make the assumption here that their sex is what got them treated this way?

But using that logistic... a 25yo who has a learning disability which means they have the mental age of a 7yo. Should we then turn around and say.. but there 25 and therefore must act 25?

That's not using the 'logistic' in the OP . A 25yo is a 25yo whatever their mental capacity. Their birth certificate or passport shouldn't be altered because they have a learning difficulty. There should of course still be different expectations of their behaviour because of their learning disability, but that has no effect on their legal age.

Dadaist everyone has a sex. Everyone. Even in execptionally rare occourances of mosaicism, the individual involved will be male, or female.

No one is none, or both.

I agree gender is completely different to sex. The confusion occours when people refer to genders as male or female then start to believe personality traits influence their sex.

Neither your sex or age are influenced by your personality. How this becomes a debate is beyond me

Interesting dadaist. I would say that my biology has caused me so many more problems than whether I identify as feminine or masculine. Even down to sick leave for incredible PmT and being fired while pregnant.

These has nothing at all to do with Gender. And my gnc friend who is very masculine would agree although her experiences are very different . But nothing to do with how she presents. She was brought up to be non-conforming and did most things a male would do.

[quote Dadaist]@Winesalot the point is it isn’t a simple fact like how long you’ve been on the earth - it’s complex with regard to what counts as ‘male’ or ‘female’ when people may be both or neither.
And overarching that is that gender goes way beyond ‘sex’ - so that regardless of your genitals - if you live life as a man or as a woman you will experience life differently. You will be treated differently. But it’s not your genitalia-(most people won’t get to to see that) it’s how you are raised, and how you internalise and externalise your sexual identity - and that is gender. That will determine how you are treated.[/quote]
Women are harassed, physically attacked and paid less REGARDLESS of how they act. You are suggesting that if women "express their gender" in certain ways then we will be treated differently? In that case, how can we express it in a way that gives us equal standing, equity and safety? Too bad we didn't think of that 20,000 years ago.
And yes, for the OP, biological sex is as immutable as age, as immutable as eye color.

"Just like if a 40 year old biological male demanded to be allowed in to a children’s play centre because he “feels” that he is 10 years old and therefore should be accepted as a child. Yet everyone can see he is not a child; he is a grown, adult man. His mature, adult body is evidence that he is not a child. Yet he is demanding others accept that he is a child because he “feels” he is a child and should be treated as such.
Should he be accepted as a child due to him “feeling” he is a child or do we accept the scientific and biological evidence, as well as what others can clearly see; that he is NOT a child and cannot be allowed in to children’s spaces."
I honestly think this will be next. If you think I'm talking rubbish, I never thought I'd fear for my job after saying." women don't have penises" on twitter

@lazylinguist

But using that logistic... a 25yo who has a learning disability which means they have the mental age of a 7yo. Should we then turn around and say.. but there 25 and therefore must act 25?

That's not using the 'logistic' in the OP . A 25yo is a 25yo whatever their mental capacity. Their birth certificate or passport shouldn't be altered because they have a learning difficulty. There should of course still be different expectations of their behaviour because of their learning disability, but that has no effect on their legal age.

Woops logic* autocorrected.

Indeed there birth certificate wouldnt be changed, however, they would be treated as someone with the mental capacity of a 7 year old and wouldn't be held to the standards and expectations of a 25yr old. Frankly I think the birth certificate is becoming a redherring as the argument is less about changing birth certificates, rather should someone who identifies as trans man/women be treated as the gender they identify.
Now if you consider a adult with the mental capacity of a 7 year old cannot help the fact they have the capacity of a 7 year old, you could argue that for the majority of trans adults who spend their entire lives identifying as the opposite gender that they cannot help that they innately feel and identify with the gender opposite to that of their biological sex.

By no means do I think that no one would take advantage if no safe guards were put in place, but the sad fact of the matter is predators will be predators regardless of how they attempt it. They will find a way. However we should not be arguing that every man/women has bad intentions. If that was the case I wouldn't have got married after being in numerous abusive relationships, as I would have concluded all men were abusive.

But I don’t really care what the clinician put on the notes after looking at their genitalia for a few seconds when they were born.

People with the DSD you describe are phenotypically female. However this is a rare condition and in the vast majority of people chromosomes can be inferred from genitals.

You may think this unimportant, but sex has unavoidable consequences, the most obvious being that females do not go through male puberty and only females can become pregnant, will have periods and will go through menopause. None of this has anything to do with identity. Without data to monitor the impact of sex, and sex specific services and protections, the half of the population that have a female reproductive system cannot participate equally in society, regardless of their identity.

You accuse the OP of not having thought this through, but you really haven't thought through the consequences of being born with a particular set of genitalia.

In general there is no need to discriminate on the basis of sex, and it is actually illegal. However in some situation is necessary, and that is why there are exemptions in the EA that allow this. I can't think of any reason to discriminate on the basis of gender.

Ferventfox What you said is actually quite offensive and definitely ignorant. I've been lucky enough to work with many adults with significant learning difficulties and we never referred to their 'mental age' as it's not something that is generally used in my experience. These adults were just that, adults and their families and carers worked incredibly hard to support them in an adult life appropriate to their needs and, as much as possible, in line with their wishes. At no point were they treated as children - that would be patronising and wholly inappropriate.

the point is it isn’t a simple fact like how long you’ve been on the earth - it’s complex with regard to what counts as ‘male’ or ‘female’ when people may be both or neither.

It's simple enough that I know which of my children would need to go to hospital if they started bleeding from their genitals.

It's simple enough that it could be inferred from my appearance that I was likely to become pregnant. (Statistics show that over 80% of women my age gave birth).

It's simple enough that it could be predicted that I would not go through male puberty.

It's simple enough that women can be oppressed simply by withdrawing services that men don't need, like access to contraception.

if you live life as a man or as a woman you will experience life differently.

I have no clue what this means. Most of the things I did today would have been regarded as 'living as man' at some point, from driving a car to earning my living to wearing trousers. I can't identify anything I did that was particularly female.

I have to agree the "mental age" argument has become offensive, possibly through ignorance rather than intended.

People with learning disabilities are not diagnosed with a fixed mental age, and they certainly are not treated as if they are that age.

And overarching that is that gender goes way beyond ‘sex’ - so that regardless of your genitals - if you live life as a man or as a woman you will experience life differently. You will be treated differently. But it’s not your genitalia-(most people won’t get to to see that) it’s how you are raised, and how you internalise and externalise your sexual identity - and that is gender. That will determine how you are treated.

I think you are confusing gender identity and sexual identity, but even then your argument doesn't make sense.

Nobody has ever escaped sexism - restrictions on the right to work/recieve an education/drive/own property - or escaped the consequences of having a female reproductive system - by externalising their identity.

But using that logistic... a 25yo who has a learning disability which means they have the mental age of a 7yo. Should we then turn around and say.. but there 25 and therefore must act 25? Should be say they must go and get a full time job and remove all 24/7 support because they are BIOLOGICALLY 25?

A 25 year old will always be a 25 year old. They have rights to additional protections if they have additional needs, and that will include having access to benefits.

None of the arguments stand up to scrutiny, do they.

Theres no 25yr olds still at primary, or recieving their pensions, cos its bollocks. Just like the idea that you can "live as a woman" is utter bollocks.

By no means do I think that no one would take advantage if no safe guards were put in place, but the sad fact of the matter is predators will be predators regardless of how they attempt it. They will find a way. However we should not be arguing that every man/women has bad intentions

So because predators will predate we should just give up on safeguarding? Just how many people would be the right amount in your view to be collateral?

None of us say everyone has bad intentions. But enough people have bad intentions that we set up safeguarding eventually.

Just like the idea that you can "live as a woman" is utter bollocks

Given no one has actually been able to give a definitive definition of woman/female I dont understand how you can live as anything which you cant define and doesn't exist.

But is it not even more frightening than the worlds described by Orwell, that we are living in a world where reality (which to date was indisputable) has been replaced by opinion. Where biological females (XX) are hounded out of their jobs, hounded out of their friendship groups, hounded out of dinner party conversation by their families, in fear for their careers, simply for stating the truth. How have we come to this, and more importantly, how to we stop it?

how do we , apologies for my typo

@Bananabixfloof

By no means do I think that no one would take advantage if no safe guards were put in place, but the sad fact of the matter is predators will be predators regardless of how they attempt it. They will find a way. However we should not be arguing that every man/women has bad intentions

So because predators will predate we should just give up on safeguarding? Just how many people would be the right amount in your view to be collateral?

None of us say everyone has bad intentions. But enough people have bad intentions that we set up safeguarding eventually.

Someone else who is Safeguardingphobic.