TWAW

[Billi77]

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

@TheProdigalKittensReturn

It's possible to believe that a debate about women's spaces is valid, but using Karen White as an argument contributes to violence against trans women

See, Wines is nicer than me. I just read that as "this argument is proving to be too effective, so I'm going to try to shame you out of using it".

Your take is much more right to the point though.

(and removing and educating their children in the coloniser's language and values and laws to prevent unhelpful and regressive non colonialist beliefs being propagated by the indigenous culture)

Mermaids is on it! Shame they lost the one case where it went to court, though, and the non-genderist dad got his son back.

there is no way of including TW, even linguistically, which doesn't exclude and disadvantage women. There is no compromise or solution where we can say that TWAW without disadvantaging women. And to the posters who seem to think that they best way forwards is therefore to try and include TW in whichever way provides the least disadvantage to women - No. We will not accept even the smallest increase in disadvantage or danger for women.....No ones taking our language, and no ones taking any of our other rights either. Women have said no, and that is the end of it.

Agree 100%

No hate, no threats, no doxing, no russian/right wing/fundy money on your head, no genital pics. How disappointing for you.

Great post Michelle. Spot on.

I still don't understand what's the difference between self ID of transwomen and Rachel Dolezal, who genuinely identified as black, and has spoken many times about how she saw herself as black from childhood. I don't think she should be able to just ID as black based on her inner feelings (which she thinks are the same as those of black people) but there's a very obvious parallel here.... what's the difference?

Langbannedforsafeguardingkids

I have long watched activists deny that Dolezal ever truly 'felt' she was, and bring up psych reports to support this. And as many people and psychs support that the example is entirely relevant in explaining transracial. As usual, the side that says she never truly felt it, use (drum roll) the concept that it hurts transgender people to discuss her case and all discussion around the topic should be shut down and not analysed at all.

@SonEtLumiere

Maybe if we could all be women together, we could move the debate along and come to some solutions?

‘Of course we can discuss women’s atheism, as soon as they recognise my Lord, Jesus Christ as their Risen Saviour’.
How about “No, and why does me having boundaries make you feel full of rage?”

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

I have rarely seen the Karen White example addressed by the transcommunity except to say 'they were not trans'

The line I see more often is that KW assaulted the women because they are violent/ dangerous, not "because they are trans" [which no-one is actually arguing btw] and that all groups contain violent/ dangerous ppl not just the group of ppl labelled trans [again, no-one is arguing that trans status is the causative factor of this person's behaviour here] and we should be safeguarding against/ preventing violent/ dangerous ppl of ALL sorts ... which completely fails to recognise that safeguarding is based on risk factors such as biological sex. Plus completely disregards that it is specifically allowances given to trans people that allowed this to happen, not some random loophole. Either KW and others claiming to be women, are women, with the reduction in risk of violent behaviour that entails, or they aren't.

You have to laugh at the sheer brass neck it takes to claim that every single example that proves that what you're demanding is foolish and dangerous is an outlier than doesn't count, somehow.

@Blibbyblobby

Who's told you that? Neither me nor any woman I know has been told we can't call ourselves women

Exactly! Just because a few extremists on Twitter might say it (I wouldn't know, not seen it myself) doesn't mean you're not allowed to call yourself a woman anymore.
Of course you are.
You're no less a woman despite any hyperbolic posts on here telling women that they're not allowed to use the word woman anymore.

Regardless of who is "allowed" to say what, if the meaning of woman is changed, I can't call myself a woman any more simply because by that changed definition, "a person of any sex who identifies as an undefined set of womany things", I won't BE a woman.

cis-woman won't cut it - it means "an adult human female who identifies as an undefined set of womany things that are open to either sex" so it excludes the adult human females like me who currently define themselves as women but don't accept "the undefined womany stuff that's open to any sex" as the defining characteristic of woman, and it excludes transmen, female non-binary adults and female agender adults, who do not identify as cis but are and always will be adult human females.

I need a word that means "adult human female" , so I can fight for what an adult human female needs and what an adult human female can be.

Ha I had a discussion with a man who claims to have a PHD in biology on twitter last night. When I made the point that I have no identity under the gender ideology classifications he told me I needed to educate myself to discover my gender. When I politely declined he called me a transphobic bigot.

So like the but I don't want any Spam skit, but with gender. The Pythons really were ahead of their time.

I completely agree with you OP but there is no safe space on mumsnet for people who believe TWAW or support trans rights (as you no doubt know from the responses!).

That said I still admire you for starting the thread because even a single voice beating back against the trans hostility on mumsnet is valuable and shows support for those persecuted by this site.

CluelessBaker what trans hostility have you seen on this thread? How have transpeople been persecuted? Can you give an example?

@CluelessBaker

I completely agree with you OP but there is no safe space on mumsnet for people who believe TWAW or support trans rights (as you no doubt know from the responses!).

That said I still admire you for starting the thread because even a single voice beating back against the trans hostility on mumsnet is valuable and shows support for those persecuted by this site.

Thank you for posting.
I think, although people have strong and robust opinions, there has been some rather good conversation on this thread - and the impression is has given me is that those who say TWAW are actually not as far away from the majority (on here) position as they think they are.

We all seem to agree about safeguarding concerns, sports...etc.

Where we differ is that many of us won't go as far down the 'be kind and make space' route, because we see it as problematic and a threat to our rights.

Where do you stand on safeguarding issues and what is your solution? If it is third spaces, then we can work together on that quite harmoniously.

Here’s a crazy idea. If people bringing up safeguarding tragedies caused by cases like Karen White hurts your cause - why not look at what allowed it to happen. Learn from it and prevent it happening again. Feminists would be happy to help.

That seems more productive than saying it’s a one off, not trans, stop mentioning it.

Right now all we see is women and children being hurt is not considered as valid reason for discussion or change.
Men, women or children not consenting to mixed sex spaces is not considered valid for discussion or change.

Gay men and lesbian women saying same sex attraction is not same gender is not valid for discussion or change.
Transsexual men and women saying sex matters is not valid for discussion or change.
Is anything valid that is not absolute agreement to one groups rights overriding others?

What gives anyone the right to change so many things without any consideration of adverse impact? Why does one groups demands outweigh adverse impact on others? That is not what equality is. It is actually what the Equalities Act is designed to prevent.

I completely agree with you OP but there is no safe space on mumsnet for people who believe TWAW or support trans rights (as you no doubt know from the responses!).

Why would they need a "safe space"? Don't their points stand up to any scrutiny? This is the Feminism and Women's Rights board. Things are discussed from the perspective of how they impact on women and girls.

Clueless,

I would also like to ask you whether your particular position would be viewed as fully in support of what is being demanded by trans ideology, or do you have any views that would be considered transphobic? Because there really is no place in the rhetoric for a nuanced position. You either accept TWAW without exception, or you would be shouted down for transphobia by some quarters.

I hope you don't mind me asking. I'm really interested in what this means for people. The biggest problem with this debate is in definition of terms. What are your definitions?

@TheProdigalKittensReturn

You have to laugh at the sheer brass neck it takes to claim that every single example that proves that what you're demanding is foolish and dangerous is an outlier than doesn't count, somehow.

Number of assaults before TRAs agree there is a concern = actual number of assaults + 1

If you want or need a safe space you create one for yourself and people like yourself. You don't demand that the entire world become your safe space (unless you're 3).

What's this obsession with safe spaces online all about? You're dismantling our real life safe spaces and telling us to suck it up, yet whining about virtual space online not being safe. Jesus Christ, listen to yourselves!

It’s the literal violence that comes with words that mean nothing anymore.

Where do you stand on safeguarding issues and what is your solution?

Let’s start with the Karen White example since it has come up so much. That was a terrible thing which should never have been allowed to happen. There were obvious signs that Karen White was a predator, and clear failures in procedure.

But do you know what I never see mentioned on the FWR board whenever KW is mentioned? The fact that 60% of rapes of inmates in the U.K. are perpetrated by prison staff. Nobody seems to give a single shit that by far the most significant threat to women in prison is prison guards, and that will not be helped one tiny bit by insisting that trans women be imprisoned with men.

It’s the same issue whenever people express concern about the possibility of men exploiting self-ID to attack women in bathrooms and completely ignoring the fact that the overwhelming majority of rape victims are raped by someone they know, who finds an opportunity which has nothing to do with whether or not trans women can use female changing rooms or loos.

So it’s not that I don’t think there is a discussion to be had about women’s spaces. It’s that if a person’s focus is exclusively or overwhelmingly about the relationship between trans women and women’s spaces, with little or no awareness or passion for the much more significant and real threats that women already face and which have nothing to do with trans people, I know they’re coming from a place of prejudice towards trans people and not a place of genuine concern for women’s safety.

For what it's worth, I would quite like to lurk on a thread purely for people who believe TWAW. I want them to speak freely and discuss what it means to them - without anyone questioning or trying to educate them. I think it would be really interesting to hear the whole position. I would like to think it would consist of more than 'just be kind. TWAW and that's it.'

But unless we let it run without leaping in, we are unlikely to ever hear the actual reasoning (if, in fact, there is more depth to it that that).

I fear it would be 'TWAW. Be kind.' Followed by talk of how mean everyone else is... but I would still like to read it to be sure.

I really want to understand without being antagonistic about it.

That said I still admire you for starting the thread because even a single voice beating back against the trans hostility on mumsnet is valuable and shows support for those persecuted by this site

When an identity rests totally on external validation from others; and on faith rather reality, it is a completely fragile construct. This idea of 'safe spaces' from words, alternative views and realities really is the curse of this age. It is not conducive to good mental health.

Get a grip!