The Glinner thing

[JohnnyW2001]

Hello! Yes, I'm a dreaded new user, and I registered here just to reply to @glinner's post. I don't wish to gloat or insult. I just wanted to reply to one specific point:

"a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here. Hopefully it will be taken in the spirit it's intended: Non confrontational sharing of science.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

What's especially interesting is that when you put people who claim to feel in the "wrong body" (as you put it) into brain imaging, they do indeed appear to have the wrong gendered brain for their body. There are observable unique characteristics that indicate a difference. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in studies for decades, and as our imaging technology has improved, it's only become more supported by science.

There are so many studies supporting this from the last 40 years, that it's difficult to pick one. Here's a few for you to Google (I can't seem to post links):

"Neuroimaging studies in people with gender incongruence", Kreukels, Baudewijntje, et al
"Grey and white matter volumes either in treatment-naïve or hormone-treated transgender women: a voxel-based morphometry study",
Giancarlo Spizzirri, et al

(Also, before anybody brings this up, I'm aware there are some scientists - namely Gina Rippon - who believe there is no biological brain gender, and that the entire brain is blank-slate shaped from birth. For those who are unaware, her argument is that society is what shapes female and male brains, due to the sheer elasticity of that organ, and that is why we see differences. One of the many problems with this argument is that the same gendered biological differences are also seen in animals. The exact same differences we see in humans. Society isn't playing role in rhesus monkeys.

Another is that there is measurable differences in male and female brains just 24 hours after birth.

To be brief: Scientists like Rippon, who claim there zero biological differences between male and female brains are, to put it mildly, are very much on the fringe and not the mainstream, despite the incredible amount of press they get.

Mainstream science says that when it comes to the gendered differences between our brains, biology plays a role and society plays a role -- not exactly controversial or difficult to believe.

Here's an article from Stanford Medicine which goes through the countless ways in which we have demonstrated biological gendered differences between brains over the decades, and how it cannot just be society as Rippon insists: "Two minds: The cognitive differences between men and women", Bruce Goldman at StanMed. Many of the falsehoods in Rippon's work are pointed out in Professor Simon Baron-Cohen's review of her book in The Times (March 2019), too.)

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science. And all mainstream science indicates that it is indeed biologically possible to have a female traited brain in a male traited body, and vise versa.

I will add one personal note: I have to say that this doesn't surprise me at all. Our genes are programmed to be occasionally random: Some people are born without a sense of smell, or missing limbs, or extra limbs, or whatever. So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right. These people really ARE suffering, and today we even have the science to prove that their complaint appears to be true.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not pushing any political agenda, or even suggesting the best way to address this situation, I'm just sharing the science, and hopefully appealing to your higher self. Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

Thanks.

@Furx

I'm sure there are a vanishingly few children that actually do know from a relatively young age that they feel like the wrong sex

Yep, I’ll hold my hand up and say I’m one of them. I KNEW for certain, in my very earliest memories (and backed up by myriad family recollections) I absolutely did not want to be a girl. I felt more like a boy, liked boy things. That feeling only grew stronger as I matured, peaking very painfully when I hit puberty.

Spoiler — im not a transman. I now know what drove those feelings. Transitioning would have made it worse, in the long run. But it would have given me a temporary fix that I estimate would have felt great, and lasted about 5 years.

So, far from being evil. T3RFS who don’t believe in trans people, many of us are actually trying to warn that the current dysphoria screening process isn’t fit for purpose and 5 to 10 years down the line theres going to be an utter shitstorm of legal action from all the poor bastards who were led down the garden path by well meaning, but misguided people.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, it's very interesting. It's a very emotionally charged issue, and it shouldn't be. A reasoned conversation is not an unreasonable request, and it must suck for you that you can't have one :(

Some people here seem to be implying that gender dysphoria is purely a psychological issue. As someone who has it, what do you think?

It's a very emotionally charged issue, and it shouldn't be.

Johnny - would you wade into a forum of black people talking about racism and their rights and tell them they shouldn't be so emotional about it? If not why not?

@twoHopes

It's a very emotionally charged issue, and it shouldn't be.

Johnny - would you wade into a forum of black people talking about racism and their rights and tell them they shouldn't be so emotional about it? If not why not?

I think we're talking at cross purposes. I was referring to @Furx's comment:

So that’s our other big problem. All we have been asking for is reasoned, evidence backed debate. This gets us doxxed, rape threats, death threats. As a punishment for asking for a debate.

I feel their request is not an unreasonable one.

A reasoned conversation is not an unreasonable request

And also you weren't trying to engage in a reasoned conversation. You came here as a male, in a forum for women, to lecture us all on "the science" and why we're not on "the right side of history". Many of us have read these studies (and the rebuttals) and many of us are scientists. That's why your post went down like a fart in a lift my friend.

Again. A completely different conversation. I was referring to @Furx's request for a reasoned conversation.

@twoHopes

A reasoned conversation is not an unreasonable request

And also you weren't trying to engage in a reasoned conversation. You came here as a male, in a forum for women, to lecture us all on "the science" and why we're not on "the right side of history". Many of us have read these studies (and the rebuttals) and many of us are scientists. That's why your post went down like a fart in a lift my friend.

What she said ^

Fair enough @JohnnyW2001 - we may have been talking cross-purposes here but I hope you take my point. Many of us are happy to debate these issues, that's what we do on this forum. But we're not happy to receive patronising lectures about "the science". No thanks. I'm out.

Johnny

I actually think there are myriad reasons, and this isn’t being acknowledged by the activists. that’s the big problem at present . And it is doing everyone a disservice. The one size fits all — kids you need BLOCKERS HORMONES SURGERY pushed by certain pressure groups is going to be disastrous for some.

The ‘ladybrain‘ Argument — that there is a female brain that gets put in the wrong body by accident is problematic on many levels (as noted above by wiser posters than me, it’s sexist, repressive and helps no one EVEN if if could be shown to be true)

And, when we look at the fundamental reasons WHY we segregate, it’s irrelevant. Men as a sex class attack womenas a sex class. A random man with a Male body is just as dangerous to a random female bodied person whether they have a ladybrain or not (transwoman. Commit crimes at a rate very similar to men, not at a rate similar to women)

As I said above, some dysphoria comes from ASD, and feeling like tou don’t fit in. The ASD mindset latches onto the idea that the mind feels wrong because the body is wrong, instead of exploring the feelings of wrongness and how it links to ASD. some from wanting to identify out of being the target of sexual abuse. Some people are gay, but have internalised homophobia, so it makes sense for them to transition to the ‘opposite sex‘ so they can pursue a sexual relationship without triggering their own homophobia (id argue that therapy to overcome the homophobia is probably better)

Mine sprung in part from being brought up in an environment that was quite strict on gendered roles. And I think today, that’s actually got societally worse, not better.

I don’t have a manbrain or a ladybrain. Just a mebrain.

@twoHopes Understood. The problem with threads of this size is that nobody has the time to read what's come before. Pages 9 onwards are possibly worth reading, but probably not. I've spent way more time than I intended to here. I just am interested in hearing more from Furxand then I'll be gone.

"a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Just read the OP, you think that by addressing the issue of are brains "sexed", you can answer that.

I have two responses.

One, that a person only ever has one body, so it can't be the wrong one. So the above statement is correct that any ideology which tells children they might be in the wrong body because of their thoughts and feelings is most definitely dangerous.

Secondly, our sex determines whether we produce sperm or ova, not how we feel. A brain in a male body which is apparently similar to a female brain (if that can be defined) is still a male brain. It might not be typical but it does not mean the man is actually a woman.

Take Debbie Hayton, who has fathered children. That is the definition of a man, not the fact he wants to be seen as female.

Thanks @Furx!

Fascinating how much more respectful and equal you are in manner when talking to someone who has disclosed to you something you equate to trans. Whole gear change as to when talking to mere females.

Pages 9 onwards are possibly worth reading, but probably not. I've spent way more time than I intended to here. I just am interested in hearing more from Furxand then I'll be gone.

Well, that's quite rude. You have a point, Michelle.

But surely denying the experiences of those with gender dysphoria, calling them part of a "dangerous ideology", also causes immense personal harm? Is it not possible to acknowledge the experiences of trans-people without that causing harm to others?

Of course you can acknowledge their experiences, and you should. As a medical student I worked for a while in adult gender identity services, I 100% believe that dysphoria is real and that trans people suffer enormously from it. But you have to separate the experience (dysphoria) from the ideology (dysphoria is caused by a gendered brain, soul, or "identity" which is somehow "born into" the "wrong" body). You can acknowledge and have sympathy with the former whilst still saying that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for the latter. If you take away the ideology then you may have a chance of getting to the root cause of the dysphoria and curing it. I personally suspect it will turn out to be a neurological disorder similar to body integrity disorder, where the brain fails to draw a correct map of your body and ends up thinking some bits should be there when they shouldn't. But once you add in the ideology then you end up with a set of beliefs in gendered souls or dualistic "identities" which exist independant from our bodies. It becomes more similar to religion than science. And as with all religious beliefs, they don't live in a vacuum, they bleed into everything we do. Specifically in this case they are leading to children believing that they are literally the opposite sex and in need of surgery, and they are leading to men forcing their way into female only spaces, making them inaccessible to many women. Acknowledging someone's experiences is one thing. Agreeing uncritically with their unevidenced assertion about what caused the experience, at the expense of your own rights, is quite another.

@Michelleoftheresistance

Fascinating how much more respectful and equal you are in manner when talking to someone who has disclosed to you something you equate to trans. Whole gear change as to when talking to mere females.

That's not true, Michelle. Please read from Page 9 onwards if you don't believe me.

Thanks everyone, it's been educational, and left me with a lot to think about. Good bye!

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings

But surely denying the experiences of those with gender dysphoria, calling them part of a "dangerous ideology", also causes immense personal harm? Is it not possible to acknowledge the experiences of trans-people without that causing harm to others?

Of course you can acknowledge their experiences, and you should. As a medical student I worked for a while in adult gender identity services, I 100% believe that dysphoria is real and that trans people suffer enormously from it. But you have to separate the experience (dysphoria) from the ideology (dysphoria is caused by a gendered brain, soul, or "identity" which is somehow "born into" the "wrong" body). You can acknowledge and have sympathy with the former whilst still saying that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for the latter. If you take away the ideology then you may have a chance of getting to the root cause of the dysphoria and curing it. I personally suspect it will turn out to be a neurological disorder similar to body integrity disorder, where the brain fails to draw a correct map of your body and ends up thinking some bits should be there when they shouldn't. But once you add in the ideology then you end up with a set of beliefs in gendered souls or dualistic "identities" which exist independant from our bodies. It becomes more similar to religion than science. And as with all religious beliefs, they don't live in a vacuum, they bleed into everything we do. Specifically in this case they are leading to children believing that they are literally the opposite sex and in need of surgery, and they are leading to men forcing their way into female only spaces, making them inaccessible to many women. Acknowledging someone's experiences is one thing. Agreeing uncritically with their unevidenced assertion about what caused the experience, at the expense of your own rights, is quite another.

Wow. I'm glad I stuck around long enough to read this opinion. Very interesting and thought provoking. Thanks!

@ErrolTheDragon

Pages 9 onwards are possibly worth reading, but probably not. I've spent way more time than I intended to here. I just am interested in hearing more from Furxand then I'll be gone.

Well, that's quite rude. You have a point, Michelle.

Ha. I only meant that my posts aren't worth reading, not that the rest of the tread isn't.

And I feel I should leave because this wider conversation doesn't need another male voice. That's all.

NP

Your opening post was a bit of a shocker, but at least you admit it.

Im glad that we have all given you something to think about. I hope that our main take home lesson here is the subconscious bias about women that people are unwittingly perpetuating.

You came across in your first post as though you thought you were talking to uneducated people lacking in knowledge. Perhaps because of your unconscious bias that a bunch of mummies couldn’t possibly be scientists, academics, philosophers and writers. And that we held the position we did because we just hadn’t considered it. Rather that it coming form a lifetime of knowledge and experience.

This happens to us a lot on here and in real life. I’m nearly 50. I am an educated professional at the top of my career structure. I still get men who have less knowledge and experience than me, questioning my informed decisions on a daily basis. Because they assume im stupid, or that I made a decision based on emotion or something. But actually, it’s just Because I’m female.

Can you imagine for a minute how mind Fuckingly annoying that is. Every. Single. Day. of your career. And on here on weekends.

It's also interesting that you can't here to re-educate @glinner and he isn't even here. I doubt he'll bother reading past the first page even if he does look. There is nothing for him to learn from your great wisdom either.

?

You started the thread and can't be bothered to read all the answers?

Anyway I have a question.

So let's say there is a male brain and a female brain you can tell apart, and a scan is available.

So rather than sexing babies at birth based on observing genitals, you gender then based on their brain scan, and the children get socialised, dressed etc according to the prevailing social norms. Is that right?

I can see a number of issues with this approach.

Ah @Furx I hear you. As I'm the only woman on my team everyone assumes that I'm the manager/admin person and that everyone else does the technical work. People cc my male colleague on emails when they want to ask a technical question. It happens all the time. It's exhausting.

Oh, and it isn’t plain old fashioned sexism based on my gender presentation either. I don’t wear a dress, makeup or heels. I like football and motorsports. And craft ales.

I look and dress like a butch lesbian, with Short hair and doc martens. Though I have been through phases of trying to fit in, and dressing more stereotypically feminine. And deliberately not mouthing off about sport.

Doesn’t make shit of difference.

@twoHopes

Ah *@Furx I hear you. As I'm the only woman on my team everyone assumes that I'm the manager/admin person and that everyone else does the technical work. People cc my male colleague on emails when they want to ask a technical question. It happens all the time*. It's exhausting.

Yep.

Exhausting is the word.

Sounds like the OP is every bit as transphobic as the rest of us...

The other day I was forwarded an email from a male manager asking to be put in touch with the clinical lead for my service area ie me an adult human female. Could they please have 'his' email address.
Because the person in charge is always a man of course.

The same day my male manager asked me if maybe I was feeling a bit 'anxious' or 'upset' because I had reported a serious clinical error made by a colleague in completely factual terms via the official incident reporting system. I am not allowed as a woman to have a well founded concern it has to be that I am 'upset'.

Like Johnny repeatedly telling us on this thread that this is 'an emotional area'. We are not allowed as women to voice a well founded reasoned concern without being accused of 'getting emotional'

Nothing is new in the world.