Surrogate using neutral pronouns

[OhHolyJesus]

I'm sharing and I couldn't even read it all so I'm not expecting anyone here to.

Utter drivel but in case there is any doubt about the loss of language and the territory we are in.

metro.co.uk/2020/06/26/surrogate-gender-neutral-pronouns-12887090/

If this goes on much longer I am taking a pot of paint and daubing 'mother' and 'woman' in red across town.

So she isn’t transgender or non-binary, she just decided that wants other people to use they/them pronouns when referring to her because she doesn’t think being a woman should be associated with she/her pronouns?

And now she is trying to “prove” that people who object to sexed pronouns being applied to them can get pregnant?

It should all be ok if we get badges with "her/she" on them, or is they discriminatory?

"I have been using ‘they/them’ pronouns for a few years now. What started as a feminist statement soon became something I realised I identified with."

Surely an oxymoron?

This is my issue with ‘gender neutral’ terminology.

If a person genuinely feels at odds with gender stereotypes or is struggling with which gender they want to identify as that’s fine, I have no problem using gender neutral pronouns if it makes them feel more comfortable.

But people like her who dress like a woman, present like a woman, do things that are inherently female, like want to get pregnant and have a baby.
But want to use the gender neutral pronouns not because they don’t identify as any specific gender but simply as a statement are the people that I take issue with.
She is clearly a woman who just wants to be awkward for the sake to making a point, maybe she has an issue identifying as a lesbian woman, who knows, it’s just a guess.

To me it is the same as the men (and woman) who do not have body dysmorphia, but claim to be transgender and demand to be referred to, be treated as and have the rights of the gender they ‘feel’ like, but choose not to make significant changes to ‘present as’ the gender they want to be.

I actually know someone who is gender fluid, they have struggled for years with feeling out of place with their gender and sexuality.
I think historically they would have just fallen into the box of ‘butch lesbian’ but they don’t feel comfortable with being labelled like that, I think how they were raised has a lot to do with it.

I feel worried for them really, pregnancy is life changing and body changing. I'm not very comfortable with surrogacy in general, but at least when/if it's someone who has already experienced giving birth, they know what they are getting into. I'm worried they are going to find surrogacy more traumatic than someone getting their pronouns wrong.

How is it a feminist statement to wilfully erase your sex from your pronouns and language? I don't get it. Surely you are colluding with your own disappearance.

Still, if enough women invent new pronouns for themselves - no two alike, mind! - and police everyone else's use of them and complain vociferously if we're mis-pronouned and generally kick off, perhaps the world's will to respect everyone's chosen pronouns will simply collapse under the strain?

It's a thought.

Woman decides to have baby. Desperately tries to appear newsworthy.

For myself, I would prefer if language as a whole emphasised sex much less, I would prefer no mr and Mrs, no his and hers, and greater use of gender neutral names

I think the language we use helps embed sexism as it makes it really easy to dismiss someone you have never met, it reminds women constantly that they are female , which we know affects their performance

I believe (a?) Chinese language has no such indicators and communication and understanding between people is not notably hampered, and working in a male dominated environment I know that we don't need any additional refinement for clear communication

It doesn't change who I am , it's doesn't diminish me in anyway to be called he by default before meeting someone, if anything it has helped people recognise they have a bias

I think the language we use helps embed sexism as it makes it really easy to dismiss someone you have never met, it reminds women constantly that they are female , which we know affects their performance

I believe (a?) Chinese language has no such indicators and communication and understanding between people is not notably hampered

No offense to the Chinese, but that culture has been notoriously misogynist for millenia. So your very example contradicts your theory.

I never said that misogyny would disappear if we didn't use sexist language, just that it would make it a little harder to take hold. In today's world, people can know one another virtually for a long time before they meet, during which they can learn respect for each other. And that mutual respect is easier, in my experience, if the other party sees you as Male to start with. Then they get a bit more used to the idea that women's opinions can be as valid as men's. It's a case of every little helps. There is no magic wand, but that doesn't mean there are lots of ways that we enable it.

And it would certainly help me personally not to be always reminded of my femaleness , which may of course affect how I view things !

I increasingly feel the opposite Midge. I want sex to be crystal clear. I have gone back to using actress, for example. In part this is because I do lot want to default to male norms, but it is more than that. I think knowing someone’s sex is fundamental to the human experience and not something that we should be trying to hide or obfuscate. It feels artificial to me and a bad way of addressing discrimination. It may not always be important (though who decides when it is or is not important?), but I want to live in a world where there is no reason not to know and it is OK to want to know.

For a while now we have been edging towards a society that says it is inappropriate to ask “personal” questions in chit chat and we are hyper aware of causing offence/committing a micro aggression. As a result people’s natural curiosity to know about their fellow humans and to ask questions is being stifled. I don’t want someone’s sex to be yet another thing that it is inappropriate to ask about or to be interested in.

In today's world, people can know one another virtually for a long time before they meet, during which they can learn respect for each other

Fair enough, but that is super easy to do on the internet. You just use a male name.

Oh Gosh, how sad. The whole story sounds like 'I am the most pleasing people pleaser ever'
Her first pregnancy won't be for her. The use of pronouns won't be for her. And she can be as sanctimonious as she likes about it.

I LOVE articles like this. They really drag the batshittery out into the sunlight.

How it's a 'feminist statement' to not want to be called 'she' though I have no idea!

Her first pregnancy won't be for her. The use of pronouns won't be for her.

I can only think that the level of teaching and understanding of human biology is so low, the absence of knowledge of all things related, especially to pregnancy and childbirth, that women like this are completely ignorant about what they are signing up to.

I know no one can really know or understand what pregnancy and childbirth is about until they go through it. Even me - a midwife, I still had a laughable birthplan! But it is a shocking that young women have so little understanding they just think pregnancy will be a nice thing to do before being super nice and giving the baby away, doing the nicest thing she has ever done in her life to be the nicest person ever.

A wise person has said, re: surrogacy, that things will need to get a lot worse before they get better. Maybe a few sacrificial lambs like this are what is needed to bring about change. When she discovers that what "being a woman" is really about, perhaps she will turn her zeal to protecting women?

And here we are, midwives, UK midwives I think, talking about birthing people.

More.

How it's a 'feminist statement' to not want to be called 'she' though I have no idea!

Announcing your female sex has been shown to trigger misogyny. For this reason feminists often advise signing of letters, for example, in a gender-neutral manner: J Smith not Jane Smith, Sam Smith not Mrs Sam Smith. So, of course, you would not list the feminine pronouns normally used to describe you, either.

But she's clearly taken this to such an extreme that she's got it arse-about-face.

I also don't think she is a surrogate mother if she hasn't yet chosen the commissioning parents. Already pregnant and giving the baby away? That's adoption not surrogacy. Surrogacy needs the CPs onboard from the beginning for the fairly important BookFit of conception, one CP needs to be involved in making the baby for a parental order to be issued.

This young woman appears very confused to me.

They are not pregnant yet. Just filled in the application form

Sorry I was getting mixed up with this and another news story. My mistake. Maybe it's time to stop looking at this for a while!

Surely, midwives who think it wrong to say 'woman' should call themselves 'midspouses'?

I want to experience pregnancy as it has always sounded so special to me but I’ve known for a long time that I don’t want to raise a child.

It won't be their (the surrogate's) choice if the commissioning parents disappear. No amount of money and no contract can force somebody to be a parent.

If they can't face up to the fact that they might end up with the baby, they have not fully comprehended what being a surrogate means.

.

I'm not very comfortable with surrogacy in general, but at least when/if it's someone who has already experienced giving birth, they know what they are getting into.

Agree.