Huge barrier to women's equality.

[Getmyheadaround]

Fellow feminist here - I need to get that out the way before I put on my tin hat. I'm prepared to get shot at from angles for this one. I won't be able to reply immediately, but will RTFT later today.

While their are many ways in which women in developed countries face everyday sexism, let alone male violence, the trans debate and barriers to opportunities in the workplace, etc - women can more often than not be their own worst enemy.

Many women who claim to be feminists seem to have no problem with the 'mean girl' culture. It is unreasonable to say, that until this issue is dealt with head on and ameliorated, we can't progress that much further than we already are? It could be said that it presents a huge barrier to achieving equal rights for females.

I appreciate this is an issue for men and boys too, though I believe that addressing it is something they are chiefly responsible for.

Open to all views. Thanks.

Edit:

Is it unreasonable to say.

When I say an issue for men and boys too, I'm referring to toxic masculinity.

I have never heard anyone call a grown man a 'mean boy'. I wonder why that is.

I think you’re essentially saying that even though women are raised in a misogynistic culture, they should magically not be misogynistic, is that right?

Women = catty, mean girls
Men = boys will be boys

Op, I do agree. I've seen it where I work and am now in a position where I can make a difference and stamp it out.

We had 2 of the worst people I've ever encountered in terms of limiting opportunities for and undermining other women. Pulling the ladder up firmly behind them. Now they're both gone and other women are flourishing. Barely any of the senior men spotted it though. I was lucky that they listened when a couple of us did.

Is it too early for ?

As I have a bit of time before I head out, I'll reply to the above.

I have never heard anyone call a grown man a 'mean boy'. I wonder why that is.

This I can appreciate, though makes have different attitudes within their sex and constructed gender roles which are equally damaging. "Pussy whipped" as one prime example. And yes, that does signal misogyny as a core problem.

@Generateusername As I said, everyday sexism is a real thing, though you cannot possibly lay the blame completely at males. A degree of accountability from women is surely necessary if we are root out toxic femininity.

That's essentially what the term 'mean girls' refers to - toxic femininity.

Women are human. Being systematically oppressed on the basis of female biology does not make women better people, it just makes them member of a class.

In the history of the world, small groups of people have driven change by being in broad agreement about a desired goal. I doubt there has ever been a collective which was in such total agreement that that in-fighting was eradicated.

Feminists will doubtless continue to argue and behave well and badly and fall out and in with each other and organisations.

First wave feminism argued that women should have the vote because womanliness was such that it’s presence would ameliorate the ills of male culture.

Second-wave feminists knew that women were not better human beings but that equality of opportunity was fair. Waiting until feminists all agree to be nice is a Sisyphusian task.

I agree that there is a problem with ‘toxic masculinity’.
Beyond that I’m not sure what you’re saying, that sometimes some women aren’t kind?

I agree with @Generateusername. Of course some women are misogynistic because we live in a patriarchy. We address this by challenging the patriarchy, not by expecting every individual woman to be on side. There are always people in oppressed groups - sometimes a large proportion of them - that do not share the goals of the fight to throw off oppression.

It’s not really fair to hold women to a totally different standard to men. The problem we’re fighting is not really the oppression of women by men, it’s the oppression of women by a patriarchal society. Yes, we’d hope for more empathy from someone who knows what it’s like to be female, but this is not a different problem to the feminist cause, it’s part of the same problem.

@carlywurly Yes, yes! In the workplace I have faced discrimination and malicious behaviour mainly and more frequently from women, though it has to said, when from men (years back now) it's fiercer. This is purely anecdotal, however, I've heard the similar from friends and family.

I have been only the receiving end of some appalling treatment from female colleagues in recent years, which has bordered on sociopathic.

@Smellbellina Read my most recent post. It's not as simple as just being unkind, more like evil IME.

you cannot possibly lay the blame completely at males

Do feminists blame it on males, or on societies current structure and the hangover from thousands of years of women being subjugated by the ruling class, )who were men)?

@DancelikeEmmaGoldman Thank you. That explains it to me quite clearly.

Some women are foul. Some men are foul. I don't think it would be right to withhold equal rights from women until they are nice. I accept that the behaviour of some does not help, but this is not a reason to penalise all.

@cremuel Agree. Patriarchy is a systemic problem and therefore has a domino effect on how women relate to one another.

Many women who claim to be feminists seem to have no problem with the 'mean girl' culture

I've got no idea what is meant by this phrase, or 'toxic femininity'. I think your views are shaped by, as you say, anecdote - you've had one particular set of experiences with various people, some of whom were women.

Some women are foul. Some men are foul. I don't think it would be right to withhold equal rights from women until they are nice. I accept that the behaviour of some does not help, but this is not a reason to penalise all.

It's not about withholding, it's about removing barriers to equality and fairness. One such barrier is accepting that some accountability, or at the very least awareness, is needed.

If we want to smash the patriarchy, we've got to start small, in our everyday actions and talk towards femininity. We cannot topple the wall simply by saying 'it's systemic'. And males also have a duty to smash the patriarchy, in as much for females as for themselves.

@ErrolTheDragon No that is not what I'm saying. Not one set of behaviours - several. It can't purely be anecdotal as it seems apparent innumerable women and girls have been on the receiving end of this.

It's worth mentioning that solidarity amongst females is also evident, in past and present in societies, which is what I aim for and strive to create. I can't be every women's friend, I understand, just think sociopathic attitudes and behaviours are an abominable and ought to be eradicated.

As I have a bit of time before I head out, I'll reply to the above.

This thread isn’t exactly topical ( eg breaking news, item on the radio) and it’s quite goady. Couldn’t you have just started it later when you get back from whatever it is you need to do? Other posters might get the wrong idea and think you’re a plopper out to stir the pot. 🤔

I understand, just think sociopathic attitudes and behaviours are an abominable and ought to be eradicated.

Sure - but such attitudes and behaviours are exhibited by men and women. Anecdotally the cases I know of of were perpetrated by men.
I don't think this is a feminist issue - other than that feminism has allowed women into the workplace.

@boatyardblues I'm about to shower and get dressed FYI. It's something which is personally impacting me. It's not intended to come across as goady.

@ErrolTheDragon Yes, that's true wrt women in the workplace. Will think more on it and reply later. Thanks.

Chiding women for a ‘mean girl culture’ is just another way of saying “be nice”. If you are serious about levelling up, we should be teaching young women and girls assertivess, not insisting on every woman becoming a doormat. Where I’ve come across unpleasant, undermining women in work they have all had issues, i.e. its something personal to them, not because they are female, and they’ve been vastly outnumbered by dickhead ‘master of the universe’ men making life harder for their female employees. The majority of women I’ve encountered in work have been supportive.

Maybe this all boils down to, don't judge men and women by different standards, in either direction.

I disagree.
So long as I am not misunderstanding you, you are saying apart from how there are always a few bad women or men who make everyone miserable, there is a “mean girl” socialisation at play that makes women less nice and sweet than they should be?

No. A million times no. You are representing the patriarchal, girls are sugar and spice and all things nice, be quiet and submissive woman old socialisation. What you think is “mean girl” is women finally being assertive and demanding their rights and that their voices be heard.