Huge barrier to women's equality.

[Getmyheadaround]

Fellow feminist here - I need to get that out the way before I put on my tin hat. I'm prepared to get shot at from angles for this one. I won't be able to reply immediately, but will RTFT later today.

While their are many ways in which women in developed countries face everyday sexism, let alone male violence, the trans debate and barriers to opportunities in the workplace, etc - women can more often than not be their own worst enemy.

Many women who claim to be feminists seem to have no problem with the 'mean girl' culture. It is unreasonable to say, that until this issue is dealt with head on and ameliorated, we can't progress that much further than we already are? It could be said that it presents a huge barrier to achieving equal rights for females.

I appreciate this is an issue for men and boys too, though I believe that addressing it is something they are chiefly responsible for.

Open to all views. Thanks.

Ok. Haven't read all recent replies. What's wrong with ME wanting to be a kind, decent human being to women AND men, in general?? Not because I'm a women, but because I want to, and because I expect to be treated with decency/common courtesy too.

‘Mean girl-ness’ is a symptom of internalised misogyny. To blame women for that feels a little bit like victim blaming. Although I agree that women can make choices whether to be kind or not. The root cause is still the patriarchy.

You haven't read all recent replies?
We explain and then you don't even bother to read what we say?
I'm off.

In medicine there is an idea of "perfect use" vs "actual use". With perfect use, a medicine that is 90% effective is better than one which is 50% effective. But in reality, if the more effective one is so hard to use that only 10% of patients will take it, while the less effective one is so easy to use that 90% of patients will take it, then the latter will be the medicine that cures the most patients. I think this idea applies well to this discussion. Imagine you have 2 competing solutions to patriarchy and the liberation of women. The first solution if followed perfectly should liberate 90% of women, while the second will only liberate 50%. But the former relies on women to meet impossibly high behavioural standards - being nice and helpful and supportive of each other at all times, never being petty or jealous or vindictive, resisting or actively unlearning their internalised misogyny in all their interactions with other women etc. Only 10% of women are able to meet these high standards. The second solution only requires from women the same minimum behavioural standards required of men - mainly that they not actively break the law. 90% of women are able to meet this standard. Which solution will offer the best chance of liberation to the greatest number of women? If your solution to patriarchy relies upon all women meeting impossibly high behavioural standards at all times, then your solution is bullshit. The only effective solution is one which liberates women while allowing them to express the full range of human personality types. But of course making our liberation conditional on a bar most women can never reach is a really convenient way to withhold it from us.

Ok. Haven't read all recent replies.

LOL

"Answer my question! Although I probably won't bother to read your reply."

Seriously?

Gathering info for an article OP?

'Haven't read all recent replies. What's wrong with ME wanting to be a kind, decent human being to women AND men, in general?'

Has anyone said there is anything wrong with that?

A LOL from me as well

I had to Google what the proper term is for "mean girl" culture and it is called relational aggression.

It is basically girls and women being covertly nasty to their target. It is to do with how girls and women are socialised e.g. girls learn they can't openly show their dislike and/or jealousy of someone as it will be disapproved of by society.

I've been a target of it at work and know other women who have but we work in a male dominated profession. Interestingly both myself and the other women I know have had different skills sets so the roles we had differ from the perpetrators. This means there was absolutely no way we could be going for the same roles on promotion.

In smaller companies it seems to be because the perpetrator wants to be the only woman, while in larger companies it's linked to other forms of discrimination. In all cases the perpetrators want to maintain their perceived status as Queen Bee and their targets are threats to this.

Men do indulge in this behaviour as well but always end up threatening and/or doing a violent act against one of their targets so get found out quicker.

This actually isn't a huge barrier to women's equality at work unless it is a small company that isn't expanding, as it is now frequently called out and often dealt with.

I wonder if, just as men aren't generally privy to the kind of conversations women have with each other, women don't have access to the men's chat.

Having caught some of this in the past (I work in IT. They sometimes forget I'm there), I think that perhaps the OP just isn't realising how much has gone on between the blokes that she just doesn't know about.

The vast majority of women are decent to other women though.

There is a minority who is passive aggressive. I have been on the receiving end of passive aggressive behavior from women who were on the surface of it both 'very nice' but obviously they didn't feel they could tell me to fuck off and let them shine or whatever it was they were thinking.

Both acted in such a text book similar way that it was interesting. Both ostracised me quite blatantly in a group while simultaneously love bombing (fawning) all over every other member of the group.

There are four responses to fear, trauma, conflict, scarcity (whatever the threat is). Fight, Flight, Freeze, Fawn and I think it is the hybrid between Fight and Fawn that is that charming passive aggressive bully. She isn't a nice person. (she's not necessarily evil either to be fair) but she will adopt niceness when it can serve her. She only 'spends' niceness on those who can validate her. The most popular in a group.

She will kiss up and kick down.

I am 'freeze' and I seem to be a target for these Fight/Fawn types. Twice it's happened in the last five years.

But I still think that this is 1) a minority of women, and 2) a result of conditioning to be pleasant which leads to passive aggression.

Men are encourage to be direct.

Women aren't. And yet, despite this, women ALSO have to put up with that bullshit narrative that we are somehow INHERENTLY bitchier.

We're not.

@sapphicscrewdriver I filled in that survey, it was quite cathartic.

*So until we're good girls we can't have nice things

Who will judge what is 'good' and 'good enough'?

What is considered 'good' in this context? Compliant? Well mannered according to which standards set by whom? (And will these be equal, general standards or just ones for females as a class group?) Why exactly is this particular behaviour so valued and what does it achieve for the group who will identify what is good enough and then reward it?

Who is the possessor of all the nice things? (And who might, if the behaviour is good enough, be willing to share it?) Why do they just have these nice things - does anyone similarly monitor and reward them or are these nice things just automatic entitlement?

Unpack that and you have the massive, intrinsic disadvantage of being born with female biology.

Which doesn't go away no matter how much privileged males wish it would so they can have ever more of what they want when they want it and all on their terms at the expense of females.*

This is such a brilliant post.

Love all the lolz. Yeah I'm an exhausted single mum, foreigner, survivor of domestic violence.

Trying to make her way in sea of mean girls . Oh yeah, my choice.

Jesus OP, why did you even start this thread? You haven't answered any of the points raised, you haven't bothered to read your own thread, you haven't even expanded on or defended your own position. You just made a post saying "I believe X", and then when people replied saying "here's various reason we disagree" you just repeated "well I still believe X and in fact I believe it even more now so there". For goodness sake. Either address the criticisms and defend you original position or, if you can't do that, concede the point. And if you can't bear to do that then just let the thread die already.

Getmyheadaround, It sounds like you’ve had some difficult times in life, some people are just not very nice (male and female) and it sounds like you’ve maybe encountered more than your fair share of unpleasant people.

To suggest that the systemic struggles all women might experience are deserved because some women are unpleasant is like saying that ageism is ok because some old people are unpleasant.

There’s a quote about feminism being for all women, even ones you don’t like. Feminism is even for the women who don’t think they want feminism. Feminists have fought and made gains for all women through history, from votes for women to making rape within marriage illegal. Obviously there is still work to do, but as a single mum and a DV survivor, I hope you know that there are many feminists working hard on the issues that might affect you. Because they care about the welfare of all women and girls.

I have thought back through my history working in female dominated fields and then male dominated fields.
Too much sexual harassment from too many men everywhere I worked.
Two instances of women trying to cause me problems in all those years.

I have no idea what your point is here and I doubt you do either. It sounds like you're having a problem at work? You could try the relationships board or the legal one for advice.

I don't think the feminist chat board is going to offer the solution you're looking for.

A sea of mean girls?

I haven't found this in 30 years of working lots of jobs.

OP, if you find that lots of people don't like you, maybe there is another explanation..