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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My daughter just told me I am a bad feminist.

151 replies

Duffmcstockings · 23/06/2020 22:17

I am not intersectional enough.

OP posts:
GreytExpectations · 25/06/2020 23:02

If men want to support the aims of feminism, that’s cool.

It's more than just "cool" I actually men supporting the aims of feminism would be massively beneficial. Same logic as white people supporting BLM.

But then again, I'm one of the few female mumsnetters that don't hate all men....

Melia100 · 25/06/2020 23:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 25/06/2020 23:04

@GreytExpectations

If men want to support the aims of feminism, that’s cool.

It's more than just "cool" I actually men supporting the aims of feminism would be massively beneficial. Same logic as white people supporting BLM.

But then again, I'm one of the few female mumsnetters that don't hate all men....

Kewl.
Melia100 · 25/06/2020 23:06

I'm one of the few female mumsnetters that don't hate all men..

Biscuit
SerenityNowwwww · 25/06/2020 23:08

@Melia100

I'm one of the few female mumsnetters that don't hate all men..

Biscuit

Who says they hate men?
ErrolTheDragon · 25/06/2020 23:10

Who says they hate men?

Rookie error. We hate straw men.

GreytExpectations · 25/06/2020 23:10

Wow sensitive bunch tonight. No wonder as a group we are still oppressed

GreytExpectations · 25/06/2020 23:12

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes deleted post

JoyFreeCake · 25/06/2020 23:14

Superb debating techniques level 1:

Say something obviously false
Wait for sometime to say "That's obviously false"
Crow "Touched a nerve there, did I?"

GreytExpectations · 25/06/2020 23:17

What did i say that was false? I was one of the few people who accurately was able to explain intersectionality on here. I mentioned a very logical idea that men as feminist allies is beneficial and then you all got pissed off.

MrsNoah2020 · 25/06/2020 23:18

If Daniel Craig is reading, I'd just like to reassure him that there are exceptions to the strict man hating policy that I was forced sign on joining MN.

GreytExpectations · 25/06/2020 23:19

Not a single person has bothered to discuss what they disagree with about my posts. Instead you all just try to shut me down with your stupid biscuits and piss off comments. So, you want to hold feminist discussions but only if all opinions agree with you?

ErrolTheDragon · 25/06/2020 23:19

What did i say that was false?

Just to clarify, you all don't want men as feminist allies?
False.

I'm one of the few female mumsnetters that don't hate all men....

False.

HemulenHouse · 25/06/2020 23:21

@waitingforadulthood My experience exactly.

LouHotel · 25/06/2020 23:23

@Greytexpectations Oh if only we could just tell little girls that if they stopped being so sensitive they won’t be burned alive to protect the family honour or have their labia’s cut off.

GreytExpectations · 25/06/2020 23:24

@ErrolTheDragon

What did i say that was false?

Just to clarify, you all don't want men as feminist allies?
False.

I'm one of the few female mumsnetters that don't hate all men....

False.

How can I first point be false when I asked it to be clarified? I was clearly trying to find out your opinions on it. Gosh, so defensive.

And I will stop accusing mumsnet of man hating as soon as I stop seeing posts with "All men this" or "All men that"

So sorry but your false technique is a pretty shitty way to try and shut down a discussion. Maybe try to engage instead?

wellbehavedwomen · 25/06/2020 23:25

@MrsNoah2020

If Daniel Craig is reading, I'd just like to reassure him that there are exceptions to the strict man hating policy that I was forced sign on joining MN.
My form had a special box to list my exemptions. Not sure if that's still there for the new sign-ups, though?
Broomfondle · 25/06/2020 23:26

No one has said they don't want male allies.
People have said (even if fighting the patriarchy) doing that for the benefit of males is compassionate but not feminism, as it is not on behalf of females.
Not including fighting for males in the definition of feminism is not rejecting them as allies, unless you think they will only be allies if something is in it for them personally?

GreytExpectations · 25/06/2020 23:27

[quote LouHotel]@Greytexpectations Oh if only we could just tell little girls that if they stopped being so sensitive they won’t be burned alive to protect the family honour or have their labia’s cut off.[/quote]
Way to completly twist what I'm saying. That technique won't work on me and that insulting accusation has nothing to do with my points. Please explain where I minimised genital mutilation or being burned alive? Because that's a hell of a disgusting accusation to jump to.

GreytExpectations · 25/06/2020 23:29

@Broomfondle

No one has said they don't want male allies. People have said (even if fighting the patriarchy) doing that for the benefit of males is compassionate but not feminism, as it is not on behalf of females. Not including fighting for males in the definition of feminism is not rejecting them as allies, unless you think they will only be allies if something is in it for them personally?
Thank you for being the only poster to actually reply without insults and maturely!

It was unclear on this board about the mumsnet feminists views on men being allies, so thank you for clarifying. I agree that feminism should put women and girls as its focus, 100% have always thought this. I was trying to point out how beneficial it'd be to get men on our side but that seemed to upset a lot of people so best I don't mention it again on here I suppose.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/06/2020 23:37

I was just answering your question concisely. I'm not feeling in the least 'defensive', thanks, and certainly had no delusions of trying to shut you down.Grin

LouHotel · 25/06/2020 23:38

@GreytExpectations

‘’Wow sensitive bunch tonight. No wonder as a group we are still oppressed’’

Your placing female sensitivity as a causation of oppression,
I’ve given you two example of Oppression - explain how I’ve twisted?

bishopgiggles · 25/06/2020 23:41

greyt
I was trying to point out how beneficial it'd be to get men on our side but that seemed to upset a lot of people

You actually said: "Just to clarify, you all don't want men as feminist allies?"
Two posters immediately said "no", that's not what we meant.
You then stated a lot of people were upset by you pointing out it would be beneficial to get men on our side.

Can you please either clarify your logic here, or admit you're just making things up to derail?
I have seen these attempts to "debate" from you previously and it is becoming clear you are unable or unwilling to engage in good faith.

TehBewilderness · 26/06/2020 00:01

@GreytExpectations

Just to clarify, you all don't want men as feminist allies? Seems like feminist men would really be good support as its them who have been oppressing us. By saying you don't want men supporting feminism it's the same as saying white people shouldn't support or be a part of the BLM movement.
Not as a general rule, no. Including men is usually a mistake that is hard to correct. Mind you, I am 74 and in all these years I have met only one male Feminist ally who did not suck all the oxygen out of the space and position himself as a leader.
CharlieParley · 26/06/2020 00:49

This is hard, and I'm sorry you're going through that. It's emotionally draining to have an additional source of conflict with your teens. And that's at the best of times. Right now, there's enough pressure on parents and teens even without this subject causing strife.

To be fair, I was more astonished than upset by what my teens came out with after I first took an interest in this subject. My oldest (at the time studying a STEM subject) honestly believed humans could change sex. My middle one told me it didn't cost me anything to be kind to the men claiming womanhood and let them into women's space.

I've never held back on political issues, whether about the insidious effects of poverty, systemic racism or the freedoms we take for granted in the West. I don't hold back now on women's rights either.

I do make sure to listen, I ask lots of questions and explore their reasoning and thinking, and include difficult subjects like male sexual violence, prostitution and the negative impact today's easily available and abundant porn is having on our society. I'm not treading lightly and I know I can't afford to do so - I have sons who need to know this stuff. Two of which are already bigger and much stronger than me and most women, so I explain to them why some women and girls may be scared to encounter them in certain situations where they feel vulnerable and what they could do to avoid that.

I have made progress with my oldest, but my middle keeps trying to catch me out and trip me up (he watches Youtube videos on how to win a debate but simply doesn't have enough experience and knowledge to pull off the easy wins he seeks).

The last apparent gotcha was Do you really think a rapist will wait for the legal right to enter before attacking women in their toilets?

I had a lot of fun answering that one.

And he finally told me that sex is a spectrum of course. Which he tells me he learned in biology at school. That one was fun too.

But my kids love a debate and I've taught them critical thinking from a young age. Plus I stay strictly factual and logical and while they may get annoyed with me, it's not an overly emotional issue for them, (despite having plenty of friends who are full on TWAW, some of whom identify as trans). Which does make coming back from the debate easier.

Above all, when it gets too much, I remind myself of myself at the same age. I gave my mother hell, I believed women's rights were sorted and I knew everything. I definitely knew everything much better than her.

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