My daughter just told me I am a bad feminist.

[Duffmcstockings]

I am not intersectional enough.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Pure trolling, and getting off on it.

Yup.

Never let it be forgotten that pre transition this person was an out and proud men's rights activist who even wrote a book about it.

So really a bit of an ongoing thread in their work emerging here... "Woe is me, women just have it so much easier than poor little ole me" (whether the "me" in question is a poor put upon middle class white man, or a transwoman).

Sorry, having a bit of a rant here.

But could there be a clearer case of Meet the new misogyny? Same as the old misogyny.

Intersectional feminism is best understood using what I think was the originator's example.

A factory treated black women worse. But they couldn't claim on race, because black men were treated better than they were in the same business, so there was no systematic racism in play. And they couldn't claim on sex, because white women were treated better than they were. They were suffering from compounded inequality - worse than black men, and white women. So the company could defend both aspects.

That has nothing to do with accepting a privileged old Etonion, opining that in his view, he is 'bringing something new and better to womanhood, just as all immigrant cultures do'.

No pet. The word you're looking for is 'colonial'.

I've never forgotten the piteous piece about using women's loos, and how we needed to understand how much more scared of us transwomen were than we could be of them - absolutely terrified beyond description that we might mock, or laugh!

And all I could think of was that Margaret Attwood quote: that men are terrified women will laugh at them, and women are afraid men will kill them.

@CaraDune

Sorry, having a bit of a rant here.

But could there be a clearer case of Meet the new misogyny? Same as the old misogyny.

Yep. Heads they win, tails we lose.

@crunchermuncher

Im not sure that makes logical sense...How can any feminism be 'the oppression of [whatever subgroup of] women'?

Do you mean the study of that oppression, or working to end it, rather than the actual oppression itself?

Apologies, I phrased that wrong. I meant part of feminism is understanding and working to end the oppression of different intersections of women. So part of feminism is recognising the specific struggles black women face or disabled women. If someone says they don't agree with intersectional feminism then they are basically not acknowledging their issues as women and understanding that needs to be a factor in feminist discussions. If you have ever read "Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race" there is an excellent chapter than explains it well.

[quote FantaOra]Here, I'm sure GreyT will agree with Thomas's take on this. Personally, I just laugh at a man spending 100,000 pounds on his face, hair and make up and being paid to write about it in a right wing newspaper for months on end, as underprivileged.

www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/transgender-diary-women-have-huge-privilege-compared-transwomen/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter[/quote]
I am not sure why you are claiming I'd agree with that. Did you even read my posts? I have not mentioned transwomen as part of intersectionality at all.

She'll get there, with pain and tears on the way. As most of us did. I was a chauvinist cloaked in feminist garb until I got pregnant (actually until I needed help to get pregnant and the doctors at one stage equated my husband wanking in a pot to what I was having to do).
Amazing how real life makes you wise up. Hence why I fear for my son, currently entirely happy that women should be treated fairly and equitably because duh. But real life will probably teach him by his late 20s that he gets preferential treatment without even asking, so I have no doubt he'll internalise that as most (not all, sigh) men do.

Did you even read my posts? I have not mentioned transwomen as part of intersectionality at all

You're not, but I'd say the majority of self proclaimed "intersectional feminists" do. Which is why people are reacting to it like this. They're not necessarily against the concept of intersectionality per se in terms of examining how multiple axes of female oppression compound that oppression.

I've had similar discussions with my autistic DD who thought she was trans last year. After overcoming her internalised transphobia and coming out as a proud lesbian I think she's starting to see the light. Then bloody jameela jamil opens her thick, woke gob

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Did you even read my posts? I have not mentioned transwomen as part of intersectionality at all

You're not, but I'd say the majority of self proclaimed "intersectional feminists" do. Which is why people are reacting to it like this. They're not necessarily against the concept of intersectionality per se in terms of examining how multiple axes of female oppression compound that oppression.

Honestly, I've only ever heard feminists use intersectionality the way I've described. I highly doubt it is used primarily regarding transwomen. I think it's incredibly harmful to women to see so called feminists refusing the accept intersectionality because of a few peoples references to transwomen.

Then bloody jameela jamil opens her thick, woke gob

You know, you can respectfully disagree with someone's views without insulting them. I'm sure that's an odd concept for you but it's something most adults are capable of doing.

I'm pretty disappointed with the current generation, actually.

I managed to be 18, 20, 25 - and understand that feminism was for females, and that no matter how much you abhor another woman's politics, she is still part of a class of humans deserving of protection from male violence.

Unfortunately, as evidenced in a spirited discussion on my social media pages last night, where my own offspring and friends decided to spout anti-JKR propaganda, without even pausing to condemn the violent threats of murder and rape she received, this is now an old-fashioned approach to feminsim.

You know, you can respectfully disagree with someone's views without insulting them

Hope that you copy and paste that around the interwebz every time a woman gets told to sck dck, which sadly happens at the same rate on your side of the ideological fence, as it does on the right.

Or are men not as fun to scold?

Hope that you copy and paste that around the interwebz every time a woman gets told to sck d*ck, which sadly happens at the same rate on your side of the ideological fence, as it does on the right.

Or are men not as fun to scold?*

Nice assumption there. No I call out people both women and men who are being unnecessarily insulting and I do not agree with the threats that JK Rowling received. My opinion still stands that adults should be able to disagree with respect, no matter what side you support. Or is that not good enough because you seemed to assume I call out women only?

you seemed to assume I call out women only

Given the deluge of misogyny online, if you are an equal opportunity caller-outer, I'm surprised you have any time to spend scolding feminists.

Hyper-focusing on the class of people least responsible for the plight of transwomen - women - while minimizing focus on the class of people most responsible - men - is not a feminist act.

I highly doubt it is used primarily regarding transwomen.

That's your understanding. My experience says otherwise. I know what intersectionality means. The amount of times I've been told I'm not "intersectional" by people who don't really understand it, and it's ALWAYS been about trans issues because that is where I fail to be intersectional, according to the righteous. Usually white people, too.

I just had similar from dd today!

So, I have room for men in my feminism. I believe gender stereotyping/expectations/roles harm both sexes for example.
My ideal would be transwomen being accepted as a way to be a man and to not face any judgement or discrimination for that. I would fight against any men trying to tell another that feeling comfortable as feminine or living in ways associated with females meant they were less of a man. Is that feminism? Or just gender critical?
In my (heterosexual) relationship it was important to me that my husband and I worked and provided childcare equally, so we worked very hard to enable this and now we both work reduced hours and split childcare and working 50:50. I feel this was a feminist act but it was also driven by the benefits I believed it would provide for the men in my life. I felt my DH shouldn't be trapped as the full time worker and miss out on raising his child because he was male/what he earned, and that my (male) DC would benefit from having both parents involved with his care and by seeing that both sexes could do both roles and weren't limited by that (after my mat leave). I believe if we raise our son this way it could help further feminism.
But was this feminism or a more personal preference for my family?
We know organisation like CALM campaign for a different way for men to be able to relate to others and an acceptance of them outside of traditional masculine stereotypes to prevent suicides. I support that as it's the flip side to a crappy gender role coin that has both sexes trapped. Is arguing against damaging patriarchal ideas, even for the benefit of men, still feminism?
Transwomen are not women and should not have rights above females. I would help campaign for a third space for them though (I know this is not what they want). My view is yes, male violence should be sorted but we have created safe spaces for ourselves until the magic time where that occurs so I couldn't in good faith expect TW to use men's facilities if it puts them at risk until they are more accepted.
Would that be feminism or more garden variety compassion? It's 'against male violence' but not specifically 'for females'. Is it transfeminism?!?!
I don't believe my feminism centres men but it's takes them into account. I believe the world would be better for both sexes if females were liberated from patriarchy so when aiming for that in my heart I am fighting for the good of both sexes.
I'm just wondering if that makes me feminist with a bit of compassion on the side or whether it sort of invalidates the whole thing.
I ask in good faith!

I’ve got two of them, late teens. We can’t discuss it anymore (yet)
I’ll wait patiently.

Would that be feminism or more garden variety compassion?

Humanism. Garden variety niceness. Noble things, but not feminism.

I mean, I get it. I have a soft spot for some groups of men too - farmers who have crazy high suicide rates, homeless men, boys with poor literacy skills.

I'd absolutely support men who are working to address problems in these specific male communities. I'm just not entirely convinced that it's the job of feminism to do it.

Males do benefit when gender is critiqued, but that's a happy side-effect of the project to liberate women and girls from misogynistic beliefs, expectations, behaviours and outcomes.

It takes a hefty dose of female solidarity to see things that way, however, because part of female socialisation is to consider men's needs as primary, and use much of our energy in responding compassionately to said needs. It's counter-cultural to say 'No, I put women and girls first.'

Globally speaking, there is enough feminist work, focused on women and girls, for any feminist to engage in for her entire lifetime. Of course some women will choose to focus on areas of male need, and that doesn't make them terrible, cancel -worthy people. It's just that they are doing work that is different to feminism.

Just to clarify, you all don't want men as feminist allies? Seems like feminist men would really be good support as its them who have been oppressing us. By saying you don't want men supporting feminism it's the same as saying white people shouldn't support or be a part of the BLM movement.

No, we are saying the aims of feminism is the liberation of women from patriarchal control - so feminism can’t be FOR men.

If men want to support the aims of feminism, that’s cool.

you all don't want men as feminist allies?

On the contrary, there are a few good male allies around. It's totally possible to support a movement while acknowledging that it isn't FOR you.

I don't think I've ever come across a man who thinks feminism is for him. Odd that so many of you are always having this problem.