Womanface

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

Considering the completely valid outrage that blackface has been permited to grace our TV screens so recently in shows such as little Britain... and wondering why womanface is not regarded as being so offensive....?

I really don't get when people refer to time spent "living as a woman", how is that different to blackface? It reduces us to a stereotype.

I think it’s one cause at a time. Everyone lines up in a very very long queue and when you get to the front someone many listen. If you’re a woman head to the back. I suspect the wait will be around 5-10 years.

I read in online news that Little Britain was being removed because of racial/cultural insensitivity’s. The picture they used was of DW and ML dressed up as very fat and ugly women.

No mention of that point.

The irony

I've been watching the worldwide protests for an end to racism, and I'm happy so many people care and all a large part of my mind and my heart keep saying is,

"Imagine if everybody cared about women's rights."

Imagine if everyone thought it was up to women to define their own groups, just like everyone else.

Imagine if everyone was this outraged about all the trauma and death women bear.

Imagine if the price of doing their own dishes suddenly looked trivial, not worth trashing half the human race for.

Imagine if nobody tried to jeer at Karens and instead focused on the real blobs of privilege and called them Donalds.

Imagine if you didn't have to explain any of this stuff because everybody had seen it and was trying to move away from it.

yeah, just imagine. I wonder what it will take for that to happen.

#WomensLivesMatter should be trending permanently

Exactly @quixote9 💛

I've started voicing my objections to womanface where I see it. BLM can't be put aside till later and nor should rejection of the subjugation of women. I wouldn't use the phrase Women's Lives Matter, it makes us sound as if we're trying to hang on to the coat-tails of BLM. #XXWOMENXX?

Imagine if you could say, go and educate yourself about #womenslivesmatter, we are not going to do it for you, or , if you dont support / agree that male oppression exists, you are a misogynist. I cant imagine that ever happening.

Can we please not do the TRA thing of appropriating racism to argue for another cause.

Racism and misogyny are both serious problems in their own right (and many women suffer from both).

And I agree - on the Left, it is more popular to oppose racism than sexism because of the Patriarchy (and many Black and brown men minimise sexism and regard racism as “the real problem”).

But to imply that racism is universally recognised to exist (let alone opposed) is wrong.

Men dressing as women in a demeaning way is wrong and should be challenged. But we can do that without the offensive comparison to Blackface, which many Black women have asked us not to do.

I suspect the wait will be around 5-10 years.

And chances are it still will be in 5-10 years time.

I am not sure why it is an 'offensive' comparison. Its highlighting that we have two very similar practices going on, one that is deemed by most people as unacceptable which is why we rarely see it and the other is mainstream entertainment and enjoyed by many, however both involve dresssng up/painting face as an oppressed group and in the latter group in particular 'drag' most of the time use misogynistic language for laughs.

I didn't watch Little Britain when it was broadcast but, in this clip, it does seem more gender critical than I expected:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ8e6UVpLNg
I may be misinterpreting it entirely but it does seem like it's mocking the idea that someone becomes a woman purely through their attire and conduct with possibly even a jab at AGP too. Apologies if this differs from the general content of the show, I don't have a TV license so I couldn't watch whole episodes even if they were on iPlayer.

To comment on your original question, is it because there has been no campaigning and substantial work to put an end to 'womanface'? Instead people are complaining on forums instead.

Blackface has been around for centuries and it has only become frowned upon in relatively recent years. Look at how much work (and bloodshed) has had to be done for it to begin to be eridicated. It really does seem as though some are only bothered about 'womanface' now because people are actually considering black issues.
If you want change, campaign for it. But for the love of humanity, please don't use the hash tag #WomensLivesMatter🤦‍♀️.

In fact this screams white feminism. One of the reasons I don't like to call myself a feminist is because of parts of it's problematic (racist) origins.

Origins of drag and blackface are from a similar time period ie around 1860/1870.

There has been a lot of campaigning to end female oppression and misogyny in all its guises, 1st wave feminism . If the problems of 'womanface' are now only being highlighted because women are now only recognising it is as demeaning as blackface and adds to the experience of females being treated as 'lesser' human beings than the male, then i dont see the problem with discussing it. The OP was titled womanface afterall

Origins of drag and blackface are from a similar time period ie around 1860/1870.

But whereas 'blackface' has rightly been pretty much taboo for decades, and certainly not now common as part of mainstream entertainment (even as satire for quite a while), drag has become much more common and more extreme/sexualised forms are celebrated. I grew up in the era when normal TV showed The Black and White Minstrels and ... Danny La Rue and Hinge and Bracket (plus many comedians putting on a frock, a wig and a silly voice which isn't exactly 'womanface'). Now it's - rightly - nothing vs drag race and drag story time type of stuff.

I would not use the hashtag womenslivesmatter @FTMF30

I'm not just thinking this for the first tine either.

IMO It's ok to discuss prejudice against women on a women's forum. Good grief we are being torn apart elsewh

Sorry the app started glitching & wouldn't let me finish my post...

I certainly wouldn't DREAM of using a womenslivesmatter hashtag.

I'm sure the notion of womanface has been discussed before now. And I'm not bringing it up as part of the BLM discussion, hence I've posted on the feminism board.
I don't recall mentioning my skin colour either.

Honestly I think it's inconsistent because neither is really being thought through clearly. The term blackface is used far more broadly than it was even 20 years ago to cover things that aren't all that similar or even come out of completely different cultural traditions.

The idea that comedy sketch actors can't portray characters of the other sex seems pretty absurd to most. While you might have convinced a few people using woke logic if it hadn't already been blessed as good and wonderful, most people are not going to be terribly sympathetic to that.

Also why is being trans perceived as so much less problematic than Rachel Dolezal? This is an honest question that I'm sure has also been asked before, that I would really like to know the answer to. I'm really sorry if it offends anyone. I just can't see that there is very much difference? I would really be happy to have an answer to this question if anyone knows. Beyond asking that we don't conflate the two "isms" - apologies again if this offends anyone.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/12/comparison-transgender-people-rachel-dolezal

Ah trans women "are women" is why...

@SmiledWithTheRisingSun Well I'm glad we can agree on the hash tag. I never said anything was wrong with discussing women's issues on a women's forum - that'smainly what it'sfor after all. It's that you asked why womanface is not deemed offensive and I was stating that there have not been years of strong campaigning to stop it. The disdain amongst those offended needs as much action as there is talk. I also never implied you where white. I did kind of tail of as that was aimed at the person who suggested the hashtag. IMO you don't have to be white to be a white feminist. It's simply someone who endorses white women's rights above all. Many people of colour have internalised racism and endorse white feminist ideology.

I think the whole trans thing enters tricky territory with women's rights as it works both ways (male to female and vice versa). FWIW, I do not think trans women are women. They are transwomen. But more people need to state that bravely in spaces where it's not so obvious everyone will agree.

A lot of women have explained why it’s offensive. It has been discussed at length here, on Twitter. There are long threads on this very point.

It is like transwomen speaking of the misogyny they feel they experience, women explaining “it is not the same” and getting ignored and talked over.

If it offensive when people outside your experience claim a commonality which does not exist. Or claim two things can fairly be compared, when they (unlike you) experience only one of them.

Blackface is by no means taboo, or Justin Trudeau would have been cancelled. He wasn’t.

Thanks @2BthatUnnoticed that is a clear explanation of why it's offensive to compare the two things.

Looking around there seem to be quite a lot of opinions on this from various perspectives.

This is from only 7 years ago:

variety.com/2020/tv/news/30-rock-blackface-episodes-removed-tina-fey-1234645607/