Squeamish about far right hangers on

[pawpawpawpaw]

Where do you stand on signing a petition for single-sex spaces which has among its signatories/co-authors a number of far right Christian and anti-feminist groups (Independent Women's Forum, Richard and Helen DeVos Foundation, Concerned Women For America, Family Research Council)?

Not shit stirring, I'm genuinely finding my way on this.

Jayne Egerton writes 'Woman’s Place UK has consistently stated an opposition to working with, or supporting the work of the religious right': womansplaceuk.org/2020/06/18/womens-rights-under-attack-hungary/ On international GC matters (like the Olympics) I suspect they'll be difficult to avoid.

I will always align myself with radical feminists, but I approach GC organisations with caution because of the overlap with other less-desirable causes.

MoleSmokes, this link (body of petition here: savewomenssports.com/iocpetition) didn't work when I tried it because of the bracket at the end.

It worked me for here: savewomenssports.com/iocpetition

I've just signed it.

Interesting pages on that site too, eg this one, detailing the now large number of male-bodied people taking women's titles and trophies:
savewomenssports.com/the-males-in-female-sport

Damn, the link I posted didn't work! Trying again:

savewomenssports.com/iocpetition

I'm slightly loathe to come on here, but as someone often categorised as being far right, by virtue of being an alleged "Christian fundamentalist" I just want to throw a few points out there. Not to derail, not to make it about 'me', but just to put the other side of things.

Far right fundamentalist Christian is an unpleasant and easy smear along the lines of 'transphobe'. Ironically Helen Islan is doing exactly the same thing that she accuses gender criticals of, in terms of whipping up fear and hatred of a particular group, on account of a protected characteristic.

1. As many posters above have said, Christianity doesn't sit neatly into a Western left/right political praxis.

Many of us are called 'far right'/facist by those who have absolutely no idea of what that means. Fascism, as with racism, is completely incompatible with Christianity, however as with all religions, it does get co-opted by groups and individuals.

It's interesting how there's no taboo when it comes to speaking about 'far right Christians' or 'Christian fundamentalists' in hushed /fearful tones. I'm not actually saying that there should be, I'm very happy for my religion to be criticised, but the unconscious prejudice can be grating, you don't after all see people openly fretting about being associated with other religious groups.

2. Christians are a diverse group politically - some of us are economically liberal, others are more of a socialist bent, but just like being a gender critical feminist is taboo on the left, so too is being against abortion.

3. The emergence of the 'trad wife' movement has also co-opted Christianity and admittedly there are some fringe, mainly US elements who do believe that a woman's place is in the home, barefoot and pregnant and economically dependent on men.

This really isn't a mainstream view. Many Christians reject feminism because they don't subscribe to identity politics which is un-Christian in nature and also because they see the movement as intrinsically damaging to women and society not because men are threatened by it.

I'm not going to go into the pros and cons of that argument, but I certainly don't see anyone with any kind of political credibility in the UK, or even the US, arguing that women are inferior and ought to stay home, or attempting to reinforce gender stereotypes.

What I do strongly believe however, is that biology means that women should have far more choice and flexibility when it comes to career choices than men. No doubt some would call that misandrist, but women are the ones who have to birth and nurture infants and therefore, society needs to do some serious re-thinking and re-balancing of the economy and workplace to accommodate for female fertility.

4. Abortion - Margaret Attwood has a lot to answer for on this one. Christians are intrinsically against surrogacy and sex work because it violates the basic human dignity of women and when it comes to children, infringes their rights too.

Nobody wants to see a Gilead or desperate women dying or thrown into jail for abortion.

Religious pro-lifers simply don't see abortion in the same way as feminists, as an inherent human right, but as a fundamental right to life, which is being denied to the most vulnerable.

There will always be a clash on this one issue, which is rapidly becoming/has become a shibboleth, but in stating the unborn have a right to life, is not the same as saying women should have no rights or no agency at all. (Though I appreciate that many readers just won't see it that way).

But basically, if you believed that abortion equated to a lost innocent human life, wouldn't you do everything you could to try and stop it and convince others that it is wrong? It doesn't make you a terrible evil woman-hater/misogynist.

How we work towards a society which values every single human life and what that would look like has yet to be thrashed out as feminists don't want to engage with this at all, but what is frustrating is the lack of good faith on all sides on this issue, which can be every bit as toxic as the gender critical debate. I don't believe that post-abortive women are murderers for example, but neither do I believe that Caitlin Moran's line about abortion being as easy as choosing kitchen worktops does anyone any favours.

5. LGBT issues. It's not about hating on people. Basically anyone who subscribes to a religious viewpoint is written off as full Westboro. It's another easy stereotype and again, if you speak to people from 'my side' you'll find that we don't much care about what people choose to do in their private lives, with the usual caveats about consent, animals and children. What we are objecting to is the way in which society has been saturated with messages about sexuality, which seems to have been elevated to the most important thing in life and the way in which it seems we have to unconditionally applaud what should be a private matter. Who someone chooses to sleep with, should be the least interesting thing about them.

I just think sometimes it would be good to sit around the table and debate in good faith. Imagine saying that another faith group or set of people made you feel 'squeamish'?

But when it comes to the gender debate/sex work/surrogacy it's a shame that we can't all work together for the common good, without the mistrust. I'm personally very grateful for those individuals who have been able to see beyond their personal prejudice and antipathy, and also for the friendships I've made with those who couldn't disagree with me more on some of these things.

We're not hangers-on either, but people with an equal stake in society and some of us have been talking about this issue for a number of years now, long before it was quite as febrile as it is now.

I peaked in about 2016 btw. And I do believe that trans rights are human rights, in that I do believe that people who identify as transgender have the same human dignity as every other human being and should not suffer unfair or unjust discrimination.

I just don't believe that choosing to base decisions about sex-segregated spaces or the safeguarding of women and children is unjust.

(Sorry if this descends into the usual trolling whenever I appear on a thread).

Thanks Carol. There is much in there with which I personally have sympathy. And as someone who went through a period of evangelical Christianity in my early twenties, I totally get how christianity is not simply a left/right issue, and can often be a really radical place to be - one which I'd say that much of the socialist tradition is founded upon.

Personal responsibility/discipline and compassion.

I don't believe that post-abortive women are murderers for example, but neither do I believe that Caitlin Moran's line about abortion being as easy as choosing kitchen worktops does anyone any favours

And I also agree that the sometimes strident tone, that you highlight, is quite unsavoury.

I have several Catholic friends and colleagues who oppose abortion. They are still nice people. They feel my willingness to sign TOP forms is unethical and do see it as killing babies. I understand their point of view but disagree with it. They are mire left wing than me on many issues. I am never sure why being antiabortion is thought to be right wing.

They feel my willingness to sign TOP forms is unethical and do see it as killing babies

My deepest feeling is that abortion, is, of course, taking life....but is a choice/decision that must come with full responsibility for what one is doing. To abort without any conscience at all, is a moral failing for me, and I don't apologise for saying that. I am a humanist.

I am of course in favour of choice - but choice with full responsibility. This for me is an essential female experience.

I will say I don't give a sh*t about who's reading along, because the screenshot posted is idiotic.

I'm not reconsidering my belief that allowing transwomen to compete in women's sport is grossly unfair to women and girls, on the basis that FRC also believes it.

That would be as stupid as rejecting the health and environmental benefits of eating less meat, because Hitler was a vegetarian.

So fuck off, screenshotters, I hate FRC AND I hate the colonisation of women's sport by males, like any sane person should.

Of course abortion is taking the potential for infant life away from a living thing which is not yet an infant.

The idea that all women getting abortions just think it's a clump of cells, dead tissue or something. and/or all women are tragically ruined for life by an abortion, is just right wing nonsense.

My abortion experiences, which are likely to be not all that different from other women's abortion experiences, were that there is struggle and recognition of the seriousness of the process before the abortion, and great relief after it, along with varying degrees of culturally-induced guilt. And now I literally never think about it, except when the topic comes up.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply Caro.

"Many of us are called 'far right'/facist by those who have absolutely no idea of what that means." I haven't called Christians fascists, I referred to these organisations (CWA, FRC) as far-right. If you want to separate personal Christian beliefs from the tenets of these organisations I don't blame you. They describe themselves as follows:

"Concerned Women for America (CWA) affirms the Bible’s unmistakable standard that there is right and wrong; that God is the Authority who established right and wrong by creation and by revelation in His Word, the Bible; that He has sent a Savior, Jesus Christ, to free us from our sin (wrong) by simple repentance and to enable us through the Holy Spirit to do what is right."

"Family Research Council's mission is to advance faith, family, and freedom in public policy and the culture from a biblical worldview."

Is this not fundamentalism? What would you call it?

As I said "There are many parts of the world where science, feminism, education etc struggle against religious fundamentalism," fundamentalism is not limited to Christianity, but the organisations mentioned above are Christian.

"Imagine saying that another faith group or set of people made you feel 'squeamish'?" It's nothing to do with personal Christian beliefs, these organisations oppose the separation of church and state, they lobby the government to gain power.

So fuck off, screenshotters, I hate FRC AND I hate the colonisation of women's sport by males, like any sane person should

@pawpawpawpaw

Thanks for your thoughtful reply Caro.

"Many of us are called 'far right'/facist by those who have absolutely no idea of what that means." I haven't called Christians fascists, I referred to these organisations (CWA, FRC) as far-right. If you want to separate personal Christian beliefs from the tenets of these organisations I don't blame you. They describe themselves as follows:

"Concerned Women for America (CWA) affirms the Bible’s unmistakable standard that there is right and wrong; that God is the Authority who established right and wrong by creation and by revelation in His Word, the Bible; that He has sent a Savior, Jesus Christ, to free us from our sin (wrong) by simple repentance and to enable us through the Holy Spirit to do what is right."

"Family Research Council's mission is to advance faith, family, and freedom in public policy and the culture from a biblical worldview."

Is this not fundamentalism? What would you call it?

As I said "There are many parts of the world where science, feminism, education etc struggle against religious fundamentalism," fundamentalism is not limited to Christianity, but the organisations mentioned above are Christian.

"Imagine saying that another faith group or set of people made you feel 'squeamish'?" It's nothing to do with personal Christian beliefs, these organisations oppose the separation of church and state, they lobby the government to gain power.

I don't really know anything about this organisations other beliefs, and their language is clearly from an evangelical tradition. They could also be fundamentalists, and the fact that they call the Bible God's Word maybe suggests it, an orthodox Catholic or Lutheran that kew their stuff would say that was a misunderstanding. But it's also to some extent a way of speaking that's bled into evangelical Christianity more generally.

Thank you for such a thoughtful, detailed post Carowiththegoodhair - and the corrected link Thinkingabout1t

I don't give a damn about the screen-shotters either. They are the same sort of dafties as Joe "if you don't vote Dem you ain't black" Biden. There are plenty of Trans people in the Church and following other religions. It is a fair bet that some of them are fundamentalists if, as they claim, Trans people are just like everyone else.

The only people who take Mimmymum seriously are people as batshit as her. Pay her no mind.

One thought while reading recent posts was "oh! Do people still read Caitlin Moran?"

Theres a lot to think about there Caro so thanks for laying it all out.

I was brought up a Catholic. And despite everything, the one thing that stops me kicking it to the curb entirely is the fundamental doctrine of Human Dignity. For everyone - radical in its day. Before the layers of shit that were piled on in the centuries after, there was that. (But all good causes get layers of shit piled on, imo)