Squeamish about far right hangers on

[pawpawpawpaw]

Where do you stand on signing a petition for single-sex spaces which has among its signatories/co-authors a number of far right Christian and anti-feminist groups (Independent Women's Forum, Richard and Helen DeVos Foundation, Concerned Women For America, Family Research Council)?

Not shit stirring, I'm genuinely finding my way on this.

Jayne Egerton writes 'Woman’s Place UK has consistently stated an opposition to working with, or supporting the work of the religious right': womansplaceuk.org/2020/06/18/womens-rights-under-attack-hungary/ On international GC matters (like the Olympics) I suspect they'll be difficult to avoid.

I will always align myself with radical feminists, but I approach GC organisations with caution because of the overlap with other less-desirable causes.

FWIW, I met Beth (founder of Save Women’s Sports) in person, briefly, and she came across as completely sincere and caring about women and girls, no matter their political standpoint(s).

I read or heard during an interview with her (can’t remember when, sorry) that she is also a DV survivor, and that informs a lot of her stance in favor of women and girls as a class.

Tl;dr I understand the hesitation of women on the left (like me) who don’t want their pro-female stance to be counted as anti-progress, but I just don’t see how signing on as pro-female sports could be assessed honestly as pro-sex-stereotypes.

@pawpawpawpaw

I was deliberately avoiding making this a TAAT, but the petition is by Save Women's Sports and I agree that men should not compete in women's sports. (Also I agree with PP that I'm not going to blow up the world by signing a petition.) The organisations I mentioned in the OP include American Christian/Evangelical groups with extreme agendas (not Tories) so yes, this is not specifically about the UK, it's an international issue with signatories from many countries.

Thanks for replies, I've only skimmed but will go back and reread later.

On an international issue like that, chances are you could have extremely different groups from different countries with different backgrounds.

@midgebabe

Goose, I don't see feminism as trying to force equality , although I agree that inequality of outcome is often used as a metric for want of a better understanding of the impact of biology on a persons instincts

I see it More as trying to ensure that opportunity is not denied on the basis of sex, trying to avoid artificial limitations and restrictions

So conservatives seem to think that any differences natural, whilst ( in my feminism) I can see that many differences are not natural but forced , that predujuice is rife. Because I have experienced it.

And my feminism also wonders about how the differences should be acknowledged. For example, is it right that men have a larger voice in government because its natural that women focus more on the family, or should society listen to all voices and therefore ensure that women with children are accommodated? What is reasonable? We no longer accept that the man who punches hardest rules , we have moved on since the Stone Age.

I think there is actually a lot of overlap around what people think is more a natural outcome of different bodies, and what is an effect of social norms. And while you might well find a conservative who would say, yeah, fewer women might end up going into something like engineering and that's ok, you'd have a difficult time finding ones that said they shouldn't.

I've met ore than one feminist OTOH that has found the push for mothers to be in the workforce personally oppressive and feels that looking for equality of outcome in that area might be a mistake.

Basically - I think the vast majority of views on this are on a spectrum that's very much weighted towards the middle, whether people consider themselves to be on the left or right.

So I do not have a common cause with those that want us all back in the right box. I think we'd be worse off if they had control of the discourse than we are at the moment

Ironically, it seems that is the left that wants people, firmly, "back in their boxes" these days, to the extent that anyone who steps out of their box is denounced.

But is the feminists' view really more committed to equality? I don't think that's the difference there at all, in fact you could argue it both ways, you could say they are trying to force women's choices into the same model as mens choices which shows lack of respect for women as women. It comes down to this judgement about equivalent outcomes. Which interestingly looks a lot like the identity politics approach

That is, increasingly, how I view the matter. Feminism, when tied to 'equality' outcomes ends up resembling just another tick box on the inter-sectionality framework/diagram.

Neither the left nor the FRC is my friend.

I am telling you, FRC is not the friend of say, an unmarried mom with mixed race gay kids - just to use an example! The FRC does not have my interests in mind, only their own. Their own overlap with mine in the most superficial of ways, on this one issue.

I mean, I'm not signing BLM petitions circulated where I am, because they are signed onto by anti-semitic, anti-women, anti-democracy groups. I'm not going to apply one rule to a BLM petition, and another to a women in sports petition. FRC support the death penalty in countries that have it for gay sex. That's not just a Tory bedfellow, or a conservative bedfellow - I'm OK with Tories and conservatives, because generally I agree that conservatism has a valuable place in discourse - but thinking that gay men should be put to death for being in a same sex relationship? That's well past the 'hold your nose' stage for me.

Fwiw, I wasn't bothered by Posie's US trip, so am not a purist at all. But FRC - man, that is a loooong way to the Christian right.

@Melia100

Neither the left nor the FRC is my friend.

I am telling you, FRC is not the friend of say, an unmarried mom with mixed race gay kids - just to use an example! The FRC does not have my interests in mind, only their own. Their own overlap with mine in the most superficial of ways, on this one issue.

I mean, I'm not signing BLM petitions circulated where I am, because they are signed onto by anti-semitic, anti-women, anti-democracy groups. I'm not going to apply one rule to a BLM petition, and another to a women in sports petition. FRC support the death penalty in countries that have it for gay sex. That's not just a Tory bedfellow, or a conservative bedfellow - I'm OK with Tories and conservatives, because generally I agree that conservatism has a valuable place in discourse - but thinking that gay men should be put to death for being in a same sex relationship? That's well past the 'hold your nose' stage for me.

Fwiw, I wasn't bothered by Posie's US trip, so am not a purist at all. But FRC - man, that is a loooong way to the Christian right.

But what is a BLM petition, really?

It looks to me that most of those are about some sort of general support for that particular organisation and it's goals, and I would also say their interpretation of and understanding of race and racism.

Well, I have a lot of problems with their goals and understanding so no way I'd sign that. Even if it was not mentioning those things specifically, their goals are typically so vague it seems like nothing more than saying yes, I support this group.

On the other hand, if there was a petition to change a specific law in a specific way, or to support a particular policy point, I don't care if the BLM people sign it or even put the petition out there, so long as I actually agree with the specific policy point. I don't care why they want to do it, if I think it should be done.

I haven't RTFT but feel obliged to ask if you think women on thee right don't have, or shouldn't have, the same rights as women on the left? Should we start asking rape victims their voting preferences before deciding if we help them or not? Many women still vote Labour even after everything they have done to eliminate women. Politics has no place whatsoever in radical feminism and those who push purity politics are as big an enemy as the TRAS, IMO.

As for Jayne Egerton, she promotes and gives a platform to a man with AGP and who has proven time and time again to be no ally to women, the left or children, so what Jayne thinks about anything is not that important, always imo

If there were left wing petitions I would sign them. But the left has abandoned women and girls.

Sometimes you looked at Jeremy Corbyn's front bench and it made you think that some people were there purely on their equality tick-box credentials rather than on ability or talent.

I am not a Corbynite but this is so offensive on so many levels. When you say "equality tick-box credentials", you're saying that you doubt the skills of those on JC's front bench that are from minorities. It's absolutely shocking that you should use your own political stance to take a shot at minorities.

OP, I get you. There are certain issues I support who also get the support of people who are so so far away from me politically. I do tend to avoid signing petitions like that, and take individual action instead. Sending letters etc.

I think that on any debate, you have to look at who is standing next to you, and why you're both on the same side.

It's not about the rights of women on the right

It's about questioning why , after perhaps a lifetime of left leaning, you appear to align with thoughts of people on the right. It's about trying to untangle why you agree on one subject when on many other isms you might find the far right position abhorrent

Why are women from all political backgrounds brought together on this issue? Why do some of the left leaning politicians appear to find the female perspective morally wrong?

There's a massive difference between making common ground with some women in the Tory party and forming alliances with far-right organisations and politicians who are deeply anti-feminist. Surely people can see why it's not a good idea to associate ourselves with people like FRC? Ethical issues aside, it's an absolute gift to the TRAs, who then paint us both as being politically aligned with these people and funded by them. (This is exactly what Naomi Wolf is doing at the moment.) It means that all those people in the middle who aren't quite sure are able to write us off without even considering the arguments.

If feminists are going to win this battle - and remember we're fighting against people who really are funded by some dodgy organisations and who have absolutely no qualms about playing dirty - then we need to make sure there is absolutely nothing that can be used against us.

I am not a Corbynite but this is so offensive on so many levels. When you say "equality tick-box credentials", you're saying that you doubt the skills of those on JC's front bench that are from minorities. It's absolutely shocking that you should use your own political stance to take a shot at minorities

You may find it offensive, but it is, unfortunately, true.

I'm not sure what you think my political stance is, but I'm a life -long Labour voter, and even I can see total lack of talent and ability when I see it. The Labour party has become about 'all women' short lists, and ticking all of the inter-sectional boxes and yet it is still to elect a female leader, or to have women on its front benches who will turn up at the appropriate committees and speak up on behalf of women.

I think that on any debate, you have to look at who is standing next to you, and why you're both on the same side

And yet both you and i find ourselves here on this board, and you seem to assume automatic opposition and ill intent because I point out something which doesn't accord exactly with your position.

You know, the Labour party, like all the other parties were always a very broad church...and then, increasingly under the sway of Momentum, Jeremy Corbyn and the new youthful demographic that had been nurtured, the Labour party front bench and most prominent spokespeople became all about conformity to narrow, politically correct thinking and agendas.

When you say "equality tick-box credentials", you're saying that you doubt the skills of those on JC's front bench that are from minorities

Dawn Butler- utterly useless, thick as a plank and very happy to accept freebies.

Thanks Melia100, this is what I'm getting at. These are not Tories, or moderates, they're objectively religious fundamentalists. I don't know how one could reframe their beliefs as anything other than far right?

"Concerned Women for America (CWA) affirms the Bible’s unmistakable standard that there is right and wrong; that God is the Authority who established right and wrong by creation and by revelation in His Word, the Bible; that He has sent a Savior, Jesus Christ, to free us from our sin (wrong) by simple repentance and to enable us through the Holy Spirit to do what is right."

"Family Research Council's mission is to advance faith, family, and freedom in public policy and the culture from a biblical worldview."

Like a lot of you things have changed for me. I'm politically homeless. My feminist beliefs are being denounced as fascism. I'm trying to understand what this means for me, not just in the context of signing a petition.

Thanks for input, it's really helpful. Just catching up on the thread.

Concerned Women for America (CWA) affirms the Bible’s unmistakable standard that there is right and wrong; that God is the Authority who established right and wrong by creation and by revelation in His Word, the Bible; that He has sent a Savior, Jesus Christ, to free us from our sin (wrong) by simple repentance and to enable us through the Holy Spirit to do what is right

I do think it is important that here, in Britain, we do retain some critical distance from American politics and the very particular forms that the 'culture wars' take there.

Every time I look at the Guardian or Observer these days I see numerous articles and pieces written by American based journalists or university professors, and it leads the reader to assume that the issues or the environment is just the same. It isn't.

'I do think it is important that here, in Britain, we do retain some critical distance from American politics and the very particular forms that the 'culture wars' take there.'

I agree, but this that isn't about UK politics and these organisations are involved for better or worse. There are many parts of the world where science, feminism, education etc struggle against religious fundamentalism. Gender-think is a global matter, and these people will use any opportunity to spread their message beyond the US. Isn't this an excellent way to get their foot in the door?

"I agree, but this that isn't about UK politics and these organisations are involved for better or worse. There are many parts of the world where science, feminism, education etc struggle against religious fundamentalism. Gender-think is a global matter, and these people will use any opportunity to spread their message beyond the US. Isn't this an excellent way to get their foot in the door?"

pawpawpawpaw - I presume you are talking about "US religious fundamentalists" when you mention hanger's on getting a "foot in the door"?

Since it has been clarified that this is about the "Save Women's Sports" Petition to the International Olympic Committee (I don't see how that makes this a TAAT) and the OP is about "far right hangers on" it is worth getting the "far right" element in perspective.

Dear International Olympic Committee,

We, the undersigned, are an international coalition of women's organizations, athletes, and supporters of women in sport who assert that male athletes should not compete in female sports.

(body of petition here: savewomenssports.com/iocpetition)

Save Women's Sports United States-based, Members Worldwide
Beth Stelzer, Founder
Dr. Linda Blade, Founding Member

Women's Liberation Front (WoLF) United States-based, Members Worldwide
Natasha Chart, Board President

Alberta Radical Feminists Canada

Ana Paula Henkel Brazal/U.S.A.
Former Pro-volleyball. 4 Olympic Games, Olympic Medalist.

Canadian Women's Declaration Canada

Canadian Gender Report Canada

Canadian Women's Sex-Based Rights (caWsbar) Canada

Concerned Women For America United States

Contra borrado de las Mujeres Spain

Coletiva Time (Tempo Colective) Brazil

Edmonton small Press Association Canada

Edmonton Women & Allies Against the Sex Industry (EWAASI) Canada

Emilie Kao United States
Director, The DeVos Center for Religion and Civil Society

Family Research Council United States
Sarah Perry, Esq., Director of Partnerships
Cathy Ruse, J.D., Senior Legal Fellow
Mary Beth Waddell, J.D., Senior Legislative Assistant

Fair Go for Queensland Women Australia

Fair Play For Women United Kingdom
Dr. NIcola Williams

Fair Sex Foundation Worldwide

Feminist Current Canada
Meghan Murphy, Founder

Feminist Legal Clinic Australia

Fem Revolt Croatia

For Women Scotland United Kingdom

GIDYVR (Gender Identity Vancouver) Canada
Meghan Murphy, Co-Founder
Holly Hutton, Co-Founder
Amy Hamm, Co-Founder

Hands Across the Aisle Coalition United States-based, Worldwide Members
Miriam Ben-Shalom, Co-Founder
Kaeley Triller Harms, Co-Founder

IWD Brisbane/Meanjin Australia

Independent Women's Forum United States
Carrie Lukas, President

Let All Play United States
Jennifer Bryson, Founder

Mujeres por la abolición (Women For Abolition) Spain

No Corpo Certo (In the Right Body) Brazil

PDF Qeubec Canada

REAL for Women Australia

Radical Feminists Unite Canada

Sharron Davies
Olympic Medalist

Speak Up for Women New Zealand
Ani O'Brien, Spokesperson
Rowena Edge, Spokesperson

Sport and Citizenship Sport Serving Policy France
Annie Sugier, Spokesperson

Standing for Women United Kingdom
Kellie-Jay Keen-Minschull, Founder

Stichting Voorzij (Foundation For Her) Netherlands
Caroline Franssen, Founder

Strashnaya (Fearsome Fems) Russia

Super Violetas (Super Violets) Spain

The Inga Thompson Foundation Untied States
Inga Thompson, Founder, and Former Olympic Cyclist

We The Females Canada

Woman are Human Worldwide
Mary Ellen Donovan, Founder

Women's Human Rights Campaign UK Based - Worldwide Members

Women's Liberation Radio News US Based - Worldwide Members
Thistle Pettersen, Founding Member

Women Speak Tasmania Tasmania, Australia

XX Fair Play Rights United States
Misha Fayant, Co-Founder

• - - - -

I am in the UK and I have already signed this petition.

I honestly do not think that the inclusion of Independent Women's Forum, Richard and Helen DeVos Foundation, Concerned Women For America, Family Research Council serves to extend their global reach and enable them to get their feet in any doors that were not already open to them.

Mole fair enough, maybe it was only a potential taat in my head as I had just read a thread about the petition.

This thread is...being discussed

Something to think about - if you are looking for real political action, not just some kind of empty ideological statements - that happens as a result broad coalitions, and ideas that seem right to various individuals and groups of people.

In a democracy that is the only way they happen.

@AlpineMuesli

This thread is...being discussed

So what, really? Don't talk about it?

Asshats will have hats on their asses. Nothing to be done.

So what, really? Don't talk about it?

I think it's worth being aware that what we say is being amplified for free by massive accounts.
It may result in more trolls, it may result in some people thinking twice about their hatred of women.

Pawpaw, support for single-sex spaces is support for women, no matter what the supporter thinks on other feminist issues. Therefore I would sign a petition for women's rights regardless of who else signed it.

That doesn't mean I would vote for them. We just happen to agree on one important issue.