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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Big Brother wants 7 years data if you are a rape victim

138 replies

OldQueen1969 · 17/06/2020 22:42

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/17/police-in-england-and-wales-dropping-inquiries-when-victims-refuse-to-hand-in-phones

Thought this might be of interest.

OP posts:
WhatWouldYouDoWhatWouldJesusDo · 18/06/2020 18:09

The sad thing is a tiny minority of women do lie. Yes, it's rare. But I'm not comfortable with both side of any crime not being investigated properly and either side being let down as a result.

Cellphone data can also be used to boost the victims allegation, as say it pinged in her rapists flat and the rapist denied she was there they'd have proof he was lying.

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/06/2020 18:12

Before someone asks, yes, even if you disable location services your phone is still tracking where it is and the various cell towers are also seeing and tracking your phone.

littlbrowndog · 18/06/2020 18:14

Why do the police keep the phones for months and months plan?

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/06/2020 18:18

Littlrbrowndog,

No idea why the UK police are doing that. They don’t need to keep them for any technical reason. A forensic data specialist can extract and preserve all its data in minutes.

littlbrowndog · 18/06/2020 18:20

They do though. As I said. My friend had to buy new phone

These are not cheap. And all her numbers and chats gone

LuluBellaBlue · 18/06/2020 18:27

A conversation I had with a CBT therapist 3 years before I was raped was used against me and ensured my rapist got off with a not guilty verdict.

The police requested my medical records as standard procedure and always disclose these to the defence.

I would never submit anything that I didn’t feel was 100% relevant (god forbid) if I was ever involved in any kind of legal case again.

She, yes woman barrister, tore me apart on the stand and I’m a very capable confident person who genuinely didn’t have anything to hide yet was left feeling like I was on trial.

The system is totally geared towards the offender Confused

Gronky · 18/06/2020 18:29

Have there been cases of a victim being prosecuted for another crime as a result of information gathered from their phones?

And all her numbers and chats gone

I thought these were backed up online. When I sign into my Google account, it loads them up on a new phone.

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/06/2020 18:31

Here is an article on how fast the police can download all the data on your phone. It’s apparently been in London since 2012, and gradually rolled out in the U.K. the past couple of years?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/31/police-rolling-technology-allows-raid-victims-phones-without/

“At least 26 forces now use technology which allows them to to extract location data, conversations on encrypted apps, call logs, emails, text messages, photographs, passwords and internet searches among other information. The searches can be done instantly at a local police station and are used by many forces for low level crime - regardless of whether or not someone is charged - and can be used on victims and witnesses as well as suspects.”

“The Metropolitan Police, which was the first force to introduce the extraction devices during the London 2012 Olympics, has admitted that when a single photograph is required from a victim's phone every one is downloaded.”

“Some forces, each of which provide different guidance, have even equipped officers with portable mobile phone extraction kits which can be used on the go.”

Perhaps some posters here are in areas where the police do not yet have updated extraction devices?

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/06/2020 18:36

I’m sorry that happened to you lulubelle.
It is true that the defence barristers will stoop to the lowest level to get an offender off, even if they know they are guilty.
I agree the system is geared towards the offender, for all crimes.
It’s too bad that in trying to avoid convicting the innocent, that some guilty offenders end up getting away with rape.

Smallsteps88 · 18/06/2020 18:41

So sorry lulubelle.

Gronky · 18/06/2020 18:44

The system is totally geared towards the offender

I want to apologise in advance, I don't mean to suggest your rapist was/is innocent but the system is geared towards protecting the innocent from false prosecution. I realise that is of little consolation in your case but please imagine being accused of a crime you didn't commit, being forbidden from finding out who your accuser is or the particulars of what you're supposed to have done and your solicitor being unable to produce an effective defence because they aren't privy to the details of the case either.

Thelnebriati · 18/06/2020 18:44

vampirethriller Flowers

Thelnebriati · 18/06/2020 18:46

PlanDeRaccordement
I don’t have my phones for the last 7 years, I don’t even have the same phone number or email accounts.

Lol. They don’t actually take your phone and keep it.

Do you think you could check your facts before you start sneering all over this thread? Some women have had their phone confiscated for years, and they still have to pay the contract on it.

Report from Rape Crisis;
Information Commissioner agrees police use of mobile phone data is ‘unlawful’
''While suspects are rightly viewed as innocent until proven guilty, it seems sexual offence complainants are treated as ‘suspicious until proven otherwise’ by our criminal justice system.''
rapecrisis.org.uk/news/latest-news/information-commissioner-agrees-police-use-of-mobile-phone-data-is-unlawful/

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/06/2020 18:47

I have cut and pasted this CPS article
“Handing over mobile phone data in rape prosecutions

29 April 2019|News, Sexual offences
Updated 13 May 2019 with Q&A

There is widespread media coverage today about how police and prosecutors use information from the mobile phones of people who report rape or other sexual offences.

It is important to correct some serious inaccuracies in the coverage and online, which could deter victims coming forward to report crimes. Sexual offences can have a devastating impact and victims must have confidence that if they report a crime, it will be handled sensitively and fairly by police and prosecutors.

It is not true that complainants in rape cases must automatically hand over personal data on their digital devices or run the risk of the prosecution being dropped. Mobile phone data, or social media activity, will only be considered by the police when relevant to an individual case.

However, for an investigation to proceed and be fair for both complainant and suspect, all reasonable lines of enquiry must be pursued. This is not new and the policy has not changed - mobile devices will not be needed in every case - but when they are, there is explicit guidance that only material relevant to a particular offence may be pursued, to minimise unnecessary intrusion. This applies to all offences and is not restricted to allegations of sexual offending.

It has also been wrongly suggested that phone data will be handed over indiscriminately to lawyers representing the suspect, so that it can be used unfairly to discredit complainants. This is absolutely not the case, and there is clear legal guidance in place to ensure that private information which does not assist the defence or undermine the prosecution is not disclosed to the defence.

Even where material must be disclosed, there are further legal safeguards before it can be used in the course of any trial.

The new consent forms being rolled out by police are intended to achieve a consistency of approach nationally, so complainants are not treated differently in different forces. They replace those which were already been used in some forces. They are designed to bring clarity around the process and to give victims an understanding of how their data might be used so they can have confidence to come forward and support a prosecution.

Background
The NPCC have published the new consent form on their website. You can download and read it here.
These forms are not specifically for sexual assault complainants - they are used in any investigation where digital devices may be examined
The forensic tools used by many forces mean that they will extract more data than is required for examination. We are clear this does not mean all data should be examined
The form makes clear investigators should respect individual rights to privacy and not go beyond reasonable lines of enquiry. They set out what they consider reasonable in the context of the allegation and why. These requests must not be purely speculative
However, in circumstances when it is necessary - both for gathering evidence and meeting our disclosure obligations - we hope the clearer information we have provided will help complainants give free, specific and informed consent
Strong safeguards are in place to prevent complainants being cross-examined on irrelevant sexual history. Section 41 of the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999 places significant restrictions on the admissibility of questions at court relating to a complainant’s sexual history which includes material gathered from digital devices
Our prosecutors will continue to robustly oppose defence applications to adduce sexual history evidence whenever it is appropriate to do so

We have launched a new training course covering the operation of the Section 41 provisions which is mandatory for all CPS rape and serious sexual offences (RASSO) prosecutors and advocates and available to members of the external Bar. In addition we have launched updated and improved legal guidance for prosecutors
We continue to work with victim groups and the Information Comissioner's Office to ensure our approach offers the necessary balance between the requirement for reasonable lines of inquiry and the complainant’s right to privacy.
Q&A
Will all those who report a sexual offence or other crime have their digital devices examined?

No. Mobile telephones or other digital devices should not be examined as a matter of course and this is very clear in our guidance to police and to prosecutors. They should only be examined in investigations where data on the device could form a reasonable line of enquiry.

Are sexual offence complainants being treated differently?

No. This approach of seeking consent for digital examination applies to all crimes but will only be used where necessary and proportionate. It will not be used in all sexual offences cases.

It will most likely be used in investigations where the complainant and suspect are known to each other and past communication is a reasonable line of enquiry. Sexual offences often involve complainants and suspects who have a prior relationship with contested claims meaning digital examination is more likely in these investigations than in many other crimes. It will also be used in other cases where digital evidence may be crucial, such as malicious communications, stalking and harassment and violent crime including homicides.

Why does this focus on the devices of complainants and not suspects?

When a crime is investigated, police will regularly seize devices of those accused, and will seek to obtain information related to a reasonable line of enquiry using this data. This is done using police powers and suspects are not required to consent. Coercive police powers are clearly not appropriate for use against complainants and access to their devices should be on the basis of specific, free and informed consent.

What happens to the information downloaded?

The investigator identifies material from the phone which is relevant to the investigation.
From that relevant material, only that which is to be used in evidence because it supports the prosecution case or material which undermines the prosecution case or assists the case for the defence (the test for disclosure) will be shared with the defence.

Even once this material has been served or disclosed, there are strict legal safeguards in the trial process that prevent the complainant being cross examined about any previous sexual behaviour other than with the leave of the court. Information that is not relevant will not be used but may be held until the case has concluded.

Why is more information downloaded than required for reasonable lines of enquiry?

Currently the forensic tools used by many forces mean that they will extract more data than is required for examination. However, we are clear this does not mean all data should be examined. We are piloting new technology and hope in the future we will be able to only extract the relevant information.

Will cases be dropped if consent is refused?

No. Decisions about how best to proceed will be taken on a case-by-case basis based on the circumstances. Complainants and witnesses are given information to enable them to make an informed decision. If consent is not given, other reasonable lines of enquiry will be considered. However, we must also inform them that without the ability to test a reasonable line of enquiry we may not be able to proceed with the case.

How was consent previously sought?

Police forces had different approaches to seeking consent, including seizing devices using police powers. The new national form seeks to bring consistency across England and Wales.
What safeguards are in place to prevent victims’ information being inappropriately shared in court?
Police will only investigate what could form a reasonable line of enquiry. Police and prosecutors have been given clear guidance that they should only seek access to personal data when necessary and proportionate.

Section 41 of the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999 places restrictions on evidence or questions about complainant's sexual history in court. Judges and prosecutors are the gatekeepers to ensuring this is upheld.”

www.cps.gov.uk/cps/news/handing-over-mobile-phone-data-rape-prosecutions

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/06/2020 18:52

That's the CPS. There might be "clear guidance in place" but it doesn't mean it's necessarily being adhered to, does it?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/06/2020 18:53

A conversation I had with a CBT therapist 3 years before I was raped was used against me and ensured my rapist got off with a not guilty verdict.

Thanks
PlanDeRaccordement · 18/06/2020 18:54

Inebriate

I did check my facts. I was surprised that some posters are saying it’s not the case in the U.K. But, upon further research into the timeline, it appears that the women who have had phones confiscated for months and months would either be as a result of being a victim either before the introduction of extraction devices in London in 2012, or in a smaller area as of 2018 when 26 Police forces had them.
But really, it’s 2020 now and the current CPS sheet clearly says that the victim is consenting to hand over mobile phone data now, not mobile phones full stop. This shows they take the data and give the phone back.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/06/2020 18:57

'The police still have my phone. They took it 8 years ago.
Held against me in court:
I was on antidepressants
I had an abortion
I was a prostitute
I had photos of myself dressed up for a night out on my phone
I'm tall (so could have fought harder)'

Wow Angry

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/06/2020 18:57

I thought these were backed up online

Gronky, yes they are now. But they were not before we had cloud computing. Littkedog, when did your friend go through this trauma? What year?

Thelnebriati · 18/06/2020 19:02

Despite every rule being broken so far, you still insist they are sticking to the rules.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/06/2020 19:05

Before someone asks, yes, even if you disable location services your phone is still tracking where it is and the various cell towers are also seeing and tracking your phone.

This is a very well known fact, please don't pretend you're giving us the benefit of your specialist technical knowledge.

Thelnebriati · 18/06/2020 19:09

WhatWouldYouDoWhatWouldJesusDo
..There's a lot of evidence on phones, I think it's fair that both are handed in.

Both phones are not handed in. Thats been part of the problem. In many cases its just the victims phone (or data) thats taken, and they are taking all of the data. Not just data that relates to the accusation.

WhatTiggersDoBest · 18/06/2020 19:26

@PlanDeRaccordement

Honestly, we don't need GPS data to prove a victim was where she said she was. What if she had mobile data turned off when it happened? Like anyone on a low income would? Or if she'd run out of phone credit?

Doesn’t matter. You can still track a cell phone even if it is turned off, out of charge, out of credit, etc. It’s saved women’s lives who have been kidnapped and being hauled away in the boot of a car. It’s caught rapists and murderers by proving they were on the scene of a rape or murder by comparing their phones data to the victims phones data.
Even a smart watch or Fitbit can be used to solve crimes.

I feel like my point made a whistling noise as it went over your head. As many other people's points seem to have done. But hey, it's easier to believe this isn't another example of systemic disempowerment of women, I know it can be an uncomfortable concept to wrestle with, especially when there's lots of written rules so it looks like the grown ups (sorry, the patriarchy, if that's not clear enough) are serious about doing stuff to help.
WhatTiggersDoBest · 18/06/2020 19:33

Let me try and break it down for you in very simple terms @PlanDeRaccordement

Phone = power

When police have phone = police have power = woman is disempowered

When woman has phone = woman is empowered

When woman has been raped = woman is disempowered

When woman has been raped and phone is confiscated = woman is disempowered and woman is disempowered even more

When woman has been raped and phone is confiscated and CPS won't prosecute because she Googled "50 shades of grey" that one time = woman is disempowered and woman is disempowered even more and woman is disempowered even more.

When woman has been raped and phone is confiscated and CPS won't prosecute because she Googled "50 shades of grey" that one time and her phone provides evidence of an adjunct crime = woman is disempowered and woman is disempowered even more and woman is disempowered even more and woman is disempowered even more.

Are you seeing the theme yet?
Systemic disempowerment is unnecessary and adds injury to injury.

littlbrowndog · 18/06/2020 20:02

2018:Plan. I was Her supporter in her police interview Scotland.

I will ask her if she got it back yet

Sh3 didn’t have back up. I don’t know why not.

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