Big Brother wants 7 years data if you are a rape victim

[OldQueen1969]

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/17/police-in-england-and-wales-dropping-inquiries-when-victims-refuse-to-hand-in-phones

Thought this might be of interest.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-48086244

Original article.

The case that brought about so many changes and was widely reported as 'woman lies man life ruined' hinged on these texts which iirc the defence were not advised of:

'It is understood messages found on the alleged victim's mobile phone included some saying what a kind person Mr Allan was and how much she loved him.

There were also references to rape fantasies, Mr Allan's lawyer Simone Meerabux confirmed at the time.'

At the time I thought the case had collapsed due to something really major in her phone.

The things above don't shout 'he didn't do it' to me.

Read the link- woman had phone taken for over 2 years and when she got it back, it hadn't even been switched on.

Yes, they might not scream he didn't do it, but I think the point is that defendants also have the right to show evidence that would suggest they are innocent.

It's not going to help the prosecution when the defence requests access to texts that they didn't know about. Do people want these cases to win or not?

If you report another crime - theft or assault for example - are you also expected to hand over your phone records for the past 7 years?

Pallisers if you read the link above it says this is very very disproportionately used in rapes reported by women.

Even though the cases that collapsed were across the board.

And why the last 7 years.

Say I got raped yesterday. Why are texts older than yesterday of any relevance?

Or just texts to that man?

If my husband raped me, there are a trillion texts saying I loved him. And loads of boring crap. There would be 10000s to read through. This is the only way to get s rape case to court now? Of course they aren't going to plough through all that shit for a crime that would be difficult to prove anyway.

Rape prosecutions and convictions are at an all time low remember.

Also.

Ched E. Remember the woman never reported him. She reported a lost handbag. He was arrested based on what HE told the police.

His texts with his mates said, got s girl etc.

She has had to have at least 3 new identities. He is playing again I think. After getting his conviction overturned when they found some men who said that she liked what they did, previously.

There was another case ?Ireland where the texts were appalling and they got off. Another one who didn't want to report as she knew how it would go.

But a woman saying you're kind, I love you, and having had raped fantasies (shared with him? Maybe, maybe not) is enough for him to get off.

It's all pretty awful tbh.

Who would report a rape? Seriously?

Who would report a rape? Seriously?

I was iffy before but the Belfast/rugby players trial sealed the deal for me. After seeing what that woman was subjected to in court and on social media I will never report a rape.

Anyone who thinks that police procedurals have anything in common with reality beyond the uniforms is making a big mistake.

*Anything not related to the rape cannot be used against you in court about the rape. It would be inadmissible. They can only use relevant evidence. What they are looking for is evidence of consent to sex. They don’t care about anything else for the rape case.

*What a joke. Do you have any idea the moral standards women's sexuality it held to? And the ridiculous defences and justifications men and the defence try to use to claim it wasn't rape.

She has tinder and a history of sleeping around, she's promiscuous so why wouldn't she sleep with this guy too

She uses porn, sometimes involving fantasy/role play/scenarios, that's just what happened here and now she's embarrassed and changed her mind

She messaged her friend saying she though he was attractive, she wanted him, it was obviously consensual as she fancied him

She's sent nude pictures in the past, she's sexually promiscuous, that means she obviously chose to sleep with this person

She sent a text to her friend saying she was angry at him, she's obviously made up this case out of anger to get revenge

They've exchanged sexually explicit messages in the past and have clearly slept together before so why would this time be any different

There's a plethora of completely legal and private things held on a woman's phone that have no relation to the rape case which someone could use to try and justify that the sex was consensual. Sexism and the policing of women's bodies is so engrained in our society that any woman who dares to engage in casual sex or with multiple partners is seen as promiscuous so why would they have said no to this guy too.

I was iffy before but the Belfast/rugby players trial sealed the deal for me.

ditto. My daughters are aged 18 and 19. After the belfast rape trial (and the stanford one), I talked to both of them about this subject and explained why I would most likely never encourage them to report a rape.

I think "law and order" has never protected women and certainly doesn't do it now. No one could look at the belfast rape trial or the stanford rape trial and think reporting a rape would be a good thing for a woman.

The girl Roman Polanksi raped said the rape trial was worse than the rape. That doesn't diminish the rape - it should instead highlight the awfulnesss of the court system.

People saying they have nothing to hide are being naive.

This, this and this again.

Some of the responses on this thread show an almost touching level of trust in the police/legal system/general establishment.

How would it work if your phone was a hot pulsing ball of "transphobia", like mine probably is.

That was certainly along the lines of what I was thinking!

It's very unfortunate that when a crime happens and is investigated, it doesn't just blow open the life of the accused, it blows open the life of the victim. That is part of the larger tragedy of crime.

No. That is a choice we make as a society.

If you are burgled or mugged or scammed, do you have to hand over your entire medical records, emails, phone data, etc etc so the police can assess whether you might have concocted the whole thing?

In a just and enlightened society, for example, rape victims would not have to disclose their entire medical records so the defence barrister could try to paint a picture of them as "mentally unstable" and therefore not "credible" as a witness. Evidence of vulnerability and trauma would not be used against victims; we would know that rapists target the vulnerable who are viewed as "not credible" and how trauma manifests.

And trials would not be about which story teller is best at convincing a bunch of ignorant randomers who to feel sorry for.

Some of the ignorant black and white thinking on this subject from some posters is quite remarkable. But explains why rape is allowed to go unchecked in our society.

Yes, of course. I hate to say, do people not watch police procedurals? I realise they are fiction but looking through computer and phone data is a big deal now, that is also the case in real life.

Apparently that's often not the case. They have a greater claim to privacy.

From an older article:

“On the other hand, we know suspects have much more leeway to refuse to disclose their personal data and in some cases that their phones aren’t even requested,” she said. “Victims are all too often left with the impression it is them and their credibility that is under investigation, not the person actually accused of a serious violent crime.”

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/25/revealed-uk-police-demanding-access-data-potential-rape-victims

In a just and enlightened society, for example, rape victims would not have to disclose their entire medical records so the defence barrister could try to paint a picture of them as "mentally unstable" and therefore not "credible" as a witness. Evidence of vulnerability and trauma would not be used against victims; we would know that rapists target the vulnerable who are viewed as "not credible" and how trauma manifests.

I agree, and it's being challenged by the Centre for Women's Justice. The investigation is ongoing but has been stalled.

Two rape complainants, represented by the Centre for Women’s Justice, launched a judicial review of the police policy on digital processing last year. The case has been paused pending an investigation into police digital extractions by the Information Commissioner’s Office.

I don’t disagree with the ‘ideal’ situation that plan describes

And if i could trust the legal system to use the information in that way then it’d be all good

But we don’t, as others have said we still have a legal system which on occasion seems to believe that the victim is on trial, there is a world of difference between looking at evidence and holding up the pretty knickers that you had no idea were going to be used against you when you put them on that morning

The PP who says the police clone the phone and return it is misinformed. Women's phones are frequently taken from them, imagine how much that limits their ability to contact their support network at such a horrible time. How many phone numbers do you know by heart any more?

In the worst case, women are left entirely without communication. Katrina O'Hara was murdered by her ex after her phone was taken by the police because she'd reported him for domestic violence. She had no way to call for help.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-42602852

I think the person who said they wouldn’t mind if they had nothing to hide is either extremely naive or wilfully ignorant.

Even if you had a dating app on your phone, it would be used against you

"The victim isn't on trial"

In theory the victim shouldn't be on trial - there have been many horrific cases over the years where they pretty much have been actually.

What did people do before mobile phones? It's not something they 'need'. Especially if there is a lot of physical evidence.

So if the victim has a photo of the rapist on her phone, they know each other? What does that show other than that? That would have zero bearing on whether he was guilty or not.

Anything not related to the rape cannot be used against you in court about the rape. It would be inadmissible. They can only use relevant evidence. What they are looking for is evidence of consent to sex. They don’t care about anything else for the rape case.

How about tweets to your pal, in which you jokily talk about getting pissed and picking up a bloke?

The nothing to hide brigade are faux naive. The fact is, defence lawyers could concievably take a search result as innocent as a MN thread discussing rape as 'evidence' you were researching the topic in order to frame someone. There's just no knowing how it could be distorted.

Gosh, I posted quite late and the first couple of replies made me think I was over-reaching with my feelings that access to so much of one's personal data was potentially damaging to a victim in a rape case - checking in now and reading others views that this is rather unjust has made me feel a bit better.

I can see that if one knows one's rapist a case may need a background overview to a point, but I can't see that you'd need more than evidence of the week or so around the actual crime that might pinpoint something helpful. And if you don't know your rapist why would it be needed at all, as it's unlikely they would even be in your phone for any reason.

I don't like the implied assumption that a woman might be lying either - I think statistics show that reports and convictions are diminishing because of the "well, it could be a case of he said /she said". I don't think I would feel encouraged to report a rape or sexual assault in the current climate tbh.

Anyway, thank you all for your input - very interesting discussion.

Have to say this part of a response made me spit out my tea

Although the justice system is actually very lenient with women. Especially traumatised women....

I mean really

My Dd's phone was gone for 6 months.
We still had to pay for it in that time.
It's ridiculous.

I really think we should have mass protests over this kind of thing. Happy to see protests over BLM, well the genuine ones, not the right wing thugs, but it did make me think what has to happen to us women for us to get the same kind of recognition over our issues.
Why are things still moving backwards in 2020 - how is it legal to demand a victims phone and tell them nothing will be done without it?