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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hannah Gadsby - Netflix

59 replies

RuffleCrow · 13/06/2020 22:29

Anyone fancy challenging her over a "Hermione is probably a Terf' 'joke' in her new Netflix show, 'Douglas'? I believe she's on Twitter. No doubt EW's legal team are already on it for entirely different legal reasons.

She immediately justified it by saying she was "punching up". Wtf Shock

I switched off straight afterwards so no idea if she was actually setting up a meta joke about how we shouldn't throw dangerous labels at each other. I doubt it though. Really disappointing as I thought her previous show, Nanette, was really good. I guess it's gone to her head and she doesn't need educated (GCSE Science) women anymore. Sad

Do we think she's genuinely ignorant of the way the word is used, or is she lashing out at other women for some reason?

If it's any consolation, I think about one person gave her a pity laugh.

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LockdownLump · 14/06/2020 01:33

Aww I'm upset by this. Watched Hannah's stand up last year and cried and laughed with her.

What a shame

DidoLamenting · 14/06/2020 01:37

She didn't need to say what she did. She could have said nothing. She got the timing wrong and she just looks opportunistic now.

LillianBland · 14/06/2020 02:28

If it’s any consolation, the vast majority of posters on her Twitter are disgusted with her. She’s also pissed of people by using BLM as a prop to take a dig at JK.

DonkeySkin · 14/06/2020 02:38

I think, as Meghan Murphy, JK Rowling, Magdalen Berns, Posie Parker et al have shown, persuasive arguments are what we do best.

The thing is though, often we aren't even having the right argument.

By which I mean, we think we are arguing with women (like Gadsby) about whether men can be women or not. But that's not the real dispute. Every woman who chants 'trans women are women' knows as well as we do that people can't change sex. They know the difference between males and females, even if they pretend to think it's terribly complicated.

The reason they say 'trans women are women' is not because they literally think they are women, but because they think that feminine-presenting men are enough like women. They think we share a common condition because we are both denigrated by men. They think that any man who wants to be a woman - or present like one - must be motivated by an intense identification and empathy with women. They want to join 'team woman', and since they are suffering so much and we share so many things in common, it would be churlish of us not to let them. Many women are terribly flattered that they want to join in the first place.

Unfortunately, all these assumptions are in error. As the behaviour and political aims of the trans movement demonstrate, men who identify as women or non-binary don't actually have much empathy for women, or understanding of our lives. Liking certain aspects of femininity, such as make-up or clothes or being sexually submissive, is not the same thing as being in solidarity with women, nor does it give any real insight into the experience of being female. Men who take on superficial markers of femininity are not 'treated like women' (by definition, they can't be, if people still perceive them as male), even if they are sometimes treated badly.

So women talk about how much they empathise with men who say they identify as us, while they display an ongoing disregard for our feelings, and push for laws and policies that are directly contrary to the wellbeing, safety and flourishing of the female half of society. If we dare to point out how some of their demands might harm - or have harmed - women and girls, they either abuse and threaten us, or guilt trip us into conceding that our needs (for privacy, safety, clear medical language, fair sporting opportunities, pick one) are unimportant. So much for 'team woman'.

In this 'sisterhood' to which all women are now expected to swear allegiance, the solidarity and compassion (not to mention the resources) go only one way, from female to male.

And we continue to have infuriating pseudo-debates about gametes and chromosomes with other women, when we should be pointing out all of the above to them instead.

Collidascope · 14/06/2020 06:19

What a shame. She could easily have posted that without the snipe about JKR doing her learning aloud (she didn't, she researched extensively for a couple of yrs privately...) and without the "doesn't matter nearly as much as she thinks she does" (JK didn't exactly create this furore, did she? No one was obliged to reply to her or report on her. She simply said things, the way most people do on Twitter).

Those unwarranted snipes in the context of the misogynistic abuse JK received are really unpleasant, I think.

Collidascope · 14/06/2020 06:31

And I agree with your post completely, DonkeySkin.

CourtneyLurve · 14/06/2020 06:45

She was beaten to a pulp in a hate crime and now sides with a misogynistic movement that encourages violence against women.

I had her new special bookmarked. Won't be watching now.

VashtaNerada · 14/06/2020 07:57

I know this is a hornet’s nest I should leave well alone and I generally do, but I am surprised by a misogynistic movement that encourages violence against women. I do agree that there are some disgusting views from some trans activists on Twitter, I certainly don’t condone the vile threats to JKR, but I’ve never found trans people in general to be like that at all. That’s one hell of a generalisation. Every trans person I’ve ever met (& I met a lot when I worked in an equalities job years ago) wanted to stay well away from the nastiness and just live their life.

sashagabadon · 14/06/2020 08:30

@DonkeySkin

I think, as Meghan Murphy, JK Rowling, Magdalen Berns, Posie Parker et al have shown, persuasive arguments are what we do best.

The thing is though, often we aren't even having the right argument.

By which I mean, we think we are arguing with women (like Gadsby) about whether men can be women or not. But that's not the real dispute. Every woman who chants 'trans women are women' knows as well as we do that people can't change sex. They know the difference between males and females, even if they pretend to think it's terribly complicated.

The reason they say 'trans women are women' is not because they literally think they are women, but because they think that feminine-presenting men are enough like women. They think we share a common condition because we are both denigrated by men. They think that any man who wants to be a woman - or present like one - must be motivated by an intense identification and empathy with women. They want to join 'team woman', and since they are suffering so much and we share so many things in common, it would be churlish of us not to let them. Many women are terribly flattered that they want to join in the first place.

Unfortunately, all these assumptions are in error. As the behaviour and political aims of the trans movement demonstrate, men who identify as women or non-binary don't actually have much empathy for women, or understanding of our lives. Liking certain aspects of femininity, such as make-up or clothes or being sexually submissive, is not the same thing as being in solidarity with women, nor does it give any real insight into the experience of being female. Men who take on superficial markers of femininity are not 'treated like women' (by definition, they can't be, if people still perceive them as male), even if they are sometimes treated badly.

So women talk about how much they empathise with men who say they identify as us, while they display an ongoing disregard for our feelings, and push for laws and policies that are directly contrary to the wellbeing, safety and flourishing of the female half of society. If we dare to point out how some of their demands might harm - or have harmed - women and girls, they either abuse and threaten us, or guilt trip us into conceding that our needs (for privacy, safety, clear medical language, fair sporting opportunities, pick one) are unimportant. So much for 'team woman'.

In this 'sisterhood' to which all women are now expected to swear allegiance, the solidarity and compassion (not to mention the resources) go only one way, from female to male.

And we continue to have infuriating pseudo-debates about gametes and chromosomes with other women, when we should be pointing out all of the above to them instead.

wow! I've never thought of it that way - but you're right. That is exactly it.
RuffleCrow · 14/06/2020 08:32

Vashsta, nobody hear thinks all transwomen are violent and abusive, any more than we think all men are violent and abusive. Sadly though, both the patriarchy in general, and this particular strand of it, are underpinned by the silent threat of violence and abuse that often women aren't consciously aware of until they 'misspeak' or 'misstep' online or in the real world.

I'm sure many of us have experienced that flash of fear down the spine when a man we'd hitherto regarded as a ' really nice guy' shoots us a 'warning look' that tells us we've overstepped the mark and reminds us he could kill us with his bare hands if he wanted to. Not that he would. He's a 'nice guy'. But he could, theoretically, and of course that underpins the tone of the relationship from then on - as 'fun' as it may be on the surface.

Sadly, any male can claim to be female - there's no filtering process and male violence against women remains at the same rates as the rest of the male after transition (which nowadays is just saying 'i'm a woman').

While Donkeyskin makes some excellent points, and describes me to a t before i became GC, actually, I can't help but think that living so much in the online bubble, most of these celebs will have had composite screenshots of the endless vile abuse so called 'TRAs' have sent women, and indeed many of them crop up on their own threads as part of a 'thank you' tweet, and are not challenged in any way. I didn't have the benefit of any of that 'dark side' when I was a Lib Fem. That's the part that really puzzles me.

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VashtaNerada · 14/06/2020 09:09

Thanks @RuffleCrow for a genuine answer to my question!

MonsteraCheeseplant · 14/06/2020 09:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

twoHopes · 14/06/2020 09:36

@DonkeySkin you are absolutely right. I've had a few conversations with women where I've shown them pictures of e.g. Alex Drummond and you can see the slow dawning realisation of what's happening. But it is very difficult to have that conversation with other women without them immediately balking at the idea and thinking you must be transphobic.

Shedbuilder · 14/06/2020 10:22

Vashta, I'm saddened that you are so surprised to receive a polite and informative answer or feel you're poking a hornet's nest. I can't see what question you asked. Was it in a previous post? I'll scroll back.

contactusdeletus · 14/06/2020 10:33

@Melia100

Yeah, she's drunk the Kool Aid.

I really loved her previous show. She was out and proud as butch, and talked about pushing back on people who told her she must be trans. Now she's with a trans or non-binary partner, can't remember which, and revelling in letting out the internalized misogyny.

Is that what happened to her?
RoyalCorgi · 14/06/2020 11:38

Agree with DonkeySkin's excellent post.

Looking at Gadsby's horrible tweet, it's not just that she's drunk the Kool Aid that's so disappointing, though it is. It's her sheer nastiness towards a woman who has bravely spoken out about her experience of sexual assault and domestic abuse. What an absolutely shitty thing to do to another woman. Perhaps she thinks it makes her look good - in which case she's stupid as well as wrong.

VashtaNerada · 14/06/2020 11:50

@Shedbuilder in all honesty, I find the discussion can degenerate so quickly into insults on both sides I always feel cautious about stepping in! I personally think there are significant crossovers between the GC people and trans activists in the sense of both wanting to protect more vulnerable people. It’s nice when there is a genuine conversation. I think both JKR and Mermaids attempted to do that last week - whether they succeeded is another matter!

RuffleCrow · 14/06/2020 13:27

That's strange, Vashta because my experience, over many years now, has been that one side is concerned with conveying factual information (admittedly factual information that the other side might find hard to hear - but sadly, facts don't account for our feelings, they just are), wheras the other side very quickly degenerates into threats of male violence against women. I'd be interested if you could post any examples of serious insults and threats of violence from the GC side though.

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VickyEadieofThigh · 14/06/2020 13:41

I'd be interested if you could post any examples of serious insults and threats of violence from the GC side though.

Indeed.

ChattyLion · 14/06/2020 13:48

I was gutted that such a talented, seemingly decent thinker who will be looked to as A Voice Of Lesbian Opinion, would turn out to be so dismissive of women’s and lesbian’s experiences in her political thinking.

The vast majority of her Twitter followers have pointed out the problems with what she’s said though which gives me hope.
mobile.twitter.com/Hannahgadsby/status/1271594929085485056

I’m hopeful Hannah Gadsby will do an amazing show about all this one day. It’s absolutely rife with irony and has scope for very politically powerful comedy. Or, she may just be another self-serving careerist prat, there is a lot of that about. Sad

VickyEadieofThigh · 14/06/2020 14:35

Can I add that I was urged to watch 'Nanette' repeatedly by a friend whose opinion I trust.

I was a bit disappointed, if I'm honest.

VashtaNerada · 14/06/2020 16:16

I haven’t seen threats from the GC side but I have heard generalisations that I find offensive, such as calling trans people misogynist or saying they accept violence against women.

SarahProblem · 14/06/2020 16:46

I enjoyed Nanette and Douglas was great too.

Not sure how attacking what she wears is at all fair/helpful though but I guess once someone expresses anti-transphobic views it's all fair game here.

ValancyRedfern · 14/06/2020 17:33

Devastated. I love her.

SunsetBeetch · 14/06/2020 18:15

I never did get around to watching anything she's done.

I haven’t seen threats from the GC side but I have heard generalisations that I find offensive, such as calling trans people misogynist or saying they accept violence against women.

No, transactivists or TRAs: a particular subsection of trans people. Not all trans people.