JK Rowling row hints at generational rift on transgender rights - The Guardian

[Rubidium]

An interesting and thought-provoking article on transgender issues in The Grauniad! I wish there had been a bit more depth, but its a start.

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/12/jk-rowling-row-hints-at-generational-rift-on-transgender-rights

What stood out for me:
From Lucy Hunter Blackburn: “This debate has become an excuse to parade some pretty ugly attitudes about the right of women over a certain age to have a public voice, and the value of older women’s political views.”

Today’s young adults are the middle-aged of tomorrow. It won’t be too long before generationZ/alpha regard millennials as middle aged has-beens who should just shut up, and that will be a fascinating thing to watch unfold. (I type as a member of Generation X.)

From Finn Mackay: “Also, we know that plenty of young people too have questions about sex and gender, and about including trans women in women-only spaces or not”

I always think of the 13-year-old who took Oxfordshire County Council to court for denying her sex-segregated changing facilities, the female detransitioners, the teenage girls dehydrating themselves because the only toilets in their schools are unisex and no doubt other examples of young women and girls getting a raw deal as a result of trans ideology and I hope they either become or continue to be angry about how harmful this ideology is, and fight back against the millennials who promulgate it.

AnotherEmma No, I'm looking forward to some of the more sanctimonious and hypocritical millennials being taken down a peg by the next generation. Owen Jones and his comrades fit into that category, and ThinEnd's daughters have male contemporaries.

Each generation has a tendency to go against the ones that precede them: the 1960s generation, the Boomers, were rebelling against the wartime generation, and now the Boomers are getting the flak from generations that have succeeded them. (Gen X seem to have escaped this to a degree but I'm sure our time will come.) Your (especially mid to late) thirties is a bit of a pivot point where in your head you're still 20 but increasingly society reminds you that you're not, and it slowly dawns on you that people who actually are 20 regard you as a bit over the hill, due to things like a lack of shared cultural references. Some find this an easier transition than others. This will soon start to happen to Jones and his crew, who in many ways have made their names by being the voice of a radical new generation (much like the Boomers did in the 60s) and it will be interesting to watch them make that transition to middle age while being replaced by a younger generation who may think very differently.

I'm really not still 20 in my head
Totally agree, though, that some of my sanctimonious and hypocritical contemporaries need taking down a peg or two!
I'm particularly annoyed with Emma Watson who is supposed to be a feminist and also owes her success to JKR FFS.

I'm a millennial and hardly anyone knows about my views on this because I'm too afraid of the backlash. The fear of saying the wrong thing is strong among young women.

I agree that we'll see a whole new incarnation of gender before long and the likes of Owen rabid Jones and his motley crew will be completely out of touch. I'm sure it won't be long before "non-binary" becomes so 2017.

There's definitely a concerted effort to paint those with a working knowledge of biology as 'old and out of touch' but it's just bog standard sexism and ageism. And it bears no relationship to the reality of the recent GC movement. I think most of us will agree that it was Magdalen Berns who first inspired us to speak out - when she was what? 21? 23? And JKR herself cites her as a major inspiration.

As for myself, I don't fit neatly into either box, nor should I have to. At 39, I've been GC for about 4 years. Before that I was just another unthinking TWAW idiot. Rationality is freely available to all ages, if only they stop and think about what they're actually saying, and ask themselves honestly whether it's actually true.

I think most of us will agree that it was Magdalen Berns who first inspired us to speak out

God I miss Magdalen Berns

I am 30, hit peak trans when I was 24. My MIL is TWAW, my own mother is both gender critical and team Be Kind.

My husband, 29, was originally team Be Kind as well but heard me out when I talked about the issue and understood the problems very quickly. He's GC now and independently followed both the Harry Miller and Maya Forstater cases (and was absolutely fuming reading the transcript for Maya's case). Thank god, too; there are some battles you don't want to have to fight at home.

I do think there is a generational divide but that there is still plenty of crossover. I am in a few GC groups and there are lots of women my age or younger who had a very similar journey into poisonous viperdom as myself.

The TRAs are their own worst enemy. Any deviation from the (increasingly absurd) party line results in a tsunami of aggression and vitriol, and once you experience that it sort of shocks you into allowing yourself to THINK about the ideology. The libfem to GCfem pipeline is real.

we’re the first generation able to get instant information online, and so much work being done debunking anti-trans arguments that we’re less likely to take things at face value

Well that's hilarious, has she any idea which generation invented the bloody internet and put the fucking information up there in the first place?

And where has so called anti trans been debunked? They just regurgitate the nonsense they have been fed like drunk teenagers after a couple of shots.

I've watched my adult daughter become more and more gc. From thinking her Mum was one of those TERFs and being anxious about my safety, the overreach and bullying of women has put her now in the gc camp.
I didn't have to do or say very much - trans activists did that all themselves.

I thought the article was appalling, actually. (Libby Brooks again.) It tried to peddle the idea that young people know far more trans people and are therefore sympathetic to them while the middle-aged are irrationally fearful because they have never met a trans person. Didn't mention that JK Rowling said she had a close trans friend. Didn't mention all the concerns feminists have about allowing men into single sex spaces. Didn't mention the enormous amounts of absolutely terrifying abuse JKR received for speaking out.

@twoHopes

I'm a millennial and hardly anyone knows about my views on this because I'm too afraid of the backlash. The fear of saying the wrong thing is strong among young women.

I agree that we'll see a whole new incarnation of gender before long and the likes of Owen rabid Jones and his motley crew will be completely out of touch. I'm sure it won't be long before "non-binary" becomes so 2017.

I agree with this. Non binary in particular is living on borrowed time and becoming a bit naff amongst teens. ( i appreciate naff is just the sort of word a middle aged mum would use but i can't recall the 2020 equivalent )

Well, of course they don't talk about the reasons why women have concerns. It would ruin the narrative.

Ugh, that was supposed to be a reply to RoyalCorgi. I clearly need to learn to use the reply feature properly.

we’re the first generation able to get instant information online... we’re less likely to take things at face value

I'm just imagining the collective eyebrow raise of university lecturers across the country at that quote.

"I'm just imagining the collective eyebrow raise of university lecturers across the country at that quote."

Absolutely, she is a member of the cut and paste generation.

Ah, young people.

You grow up being ferried around by Mummy to clubs. You don't go outside much. You don't get to go out too much without constant mobile contact or being in safe places. You eventually go to a nice university where you live in luxury accommodation and lots more safe places. You enjoy reinventing yourself as a very tolerant wise person who knows everything.

And then one day you're past 30 and find that yes, you're a woman, and the body you're in actually has consequences on your future, and a lot of it ticks around biology and choices or lack thereof.

Completely agree with @anotheremma

don't mean to dismiss the experiences and opinions of women who are not mothers, btw - just saying that personally the experience of motherhood has been profound and has radicalised me

I worked in very female centric industries until I had my first dc. I was never against feminism but it was something I never thought about because I was brought up to believe I was equal & I felt I was. I had no issue with achieving things in my education, career & although my parents were immigrants they were successful & I grew up pretty mc & privileged.

It wasn't until I gave birth & become a mother I realised how sexist it still was. I went back to work in another female dominated industry so haven't experienced sexism at work. I still live in a fairly privileged bubble, so in my day to day environment I don't really see sexism. I'm unlikely to see a prison cell or need a shelter, there's little risk of my safe spaces not being safe anymore.

However I now have a greater understanding that my experience is not the same for everyone's. I had no idea how many women were subjected to sexual assaults at work or how many women were murdered by partners/ex's when I was in my 20s. The whole trans debate showed me how much misogyny is still out there. when did it become ok to tell women their opinion is of no importance. Once you see all the sexism you can't not see it.

What really angers me is why do we tolerate it? We are 50% of the worlds population, we are entitled to every respect & privilege that men have & we are not lesser than them.

I also think there is a lack of information, many people in the "real world" aren't aware of the self id issue.

Why do we tolerate it?
I don't think we do - or if we do, it's because we are conditioned to and/or because we have no choice.
The blame lies with those who oppress us.

@AnotherEmma

(I don't mean to dismiss the experiences and opinions of women who are not mothers, btw - just saying that personally the experience of motherhood has been profound and has radicalised me.)

I am 40 and childless through choice. I actually think women like me have experienced from both sides...not only from men in the workplace etc, but also from other women who have swallowed the whole 'a woman's purpose is to bring the next generation into the world' mantra. We are seen by many as 'not quite' women. This is one of the many reasons why men who think they are women by simply claiming to be will get short shrift from me.

*experienced judgement and discrimination

Yes and I absolutely didn't mean to dismiss you as "not quite" a woman, hence trying to clarify that I was talking myself and not trying to exclude others.

I'm sorry you have experienced judgment. I didn't realise how wise childless people are until I had a child

PS childless by choice I mean

Ha anotherEmma it wasn't directed at you specifically, just your comment gave context to mine. Women need to stick together now more than ever.

@Winederlust - totally with you on this. I'm at that age now where it's incredibly tiring having to explain to people over and over that no I don't want to be someone's wife, no I'm not hoping to get pregnant, no it won't be me soon. It doesn't matter how many times I say it, it's as if it doesn't compute in people's brains. When the penny does finally drop you can see that instant judgement and suspicion from people.

No one says any of this to my (male) partner.

My kids go to a Stonewall school. So are 'taught' that you can change sex. That people should be free to be who they want to be. That we are all equal. Apart from the changing sex bit, all very laudable.

I could see the judgment on their faces when I said I didn't believe somebody could change sex. Then we talked about it. What sex actually is. What it means. How they would feel on cub camp sharing a tent. Etc.

Then people in their 20s. Genuinely look perplexed when I mention feminism. As though it's something like bell bottoms and long collars. Dated, old fashioned, irrelevant. They have yet to come across sexism. Or so they think.

I think the generational thing is all smoke and mirrors. It's wonderful our kids are raised to believe in equality. To think we are there. It's such a shame that equality has yet to happen. Watching them realise it is hard.

If there were no such thing as misogyny, there would be no issue.