Douglas Murray on JKR

[lucymaudmonty]

As someone who has long thought of myself as a left leaning feminist I am surprised by how much I increasingly agree with every word Douglas Murray writes.

Here is on JKR

unherd.com/2020/06/why-j-k-rowling-had-to-be-denounced/

He's saying all the right things for all the wrong reasons

Saying the 'right things' for whatever reason is
imo, preferable to saying things which are untrue or absurd and claiming that to question them, is indicative of heresy, wrongthink. Or evil.

Saying the 'right things' for whatever reason is
imo, preferable to saying things which are untrue or absurd and claiming that to question them, is indicative of heresy, wrongthink. Or evil.

Of course I agree. But it worries me that people think Murray is some kind of feminist ally. He absolutely is not.

He absolutely is not

I respectfully disagree. He is a voice of reason and a champion of freedom of speech at a time when both are under sustained attack. Many feminists have been denounced, no platformed and vilified for asserting a belief in biological sex. This is an issue of freedom of speech, as well as feminism. I don't subscribe to the idea that you have to agree with everything someone says in order to value their analysis.

Yes I agree. I think part of the reason the authoritarian left is so dangerous at the minute is the refusal to accept a range of views. You have to seemingly accept the entire package deal of leftist views otherwise you are denounced as a heretic. No room for nuance.

I felt I had incredible power as a young woman. I just didn't realise how short lived and dependent on male satisfaction and concentration span that power would be.

I'm not saying he's a heretic or that he should be denounced. I agree with him on a lot of things, including the trans issue and free speech. I've read his book and listened to him interviewed many times. All I'm saying is that I certainly don't agree with him on many aspects of feminism and so I think we should be careful about putting forward Murray as a spokesperson for gender issues.

I hope what he says is true where he says that the controversial opinion is the majority held opinion in this case. I've been down all weekend about the threats of violence jk had recieved. I don't follow sm enough to know whether anyone from the trans side is advocating peace but that needs to happen. Threatening a women with physical violence is so awful.

Yes, I didn't enjoy the bit of 'Madness of Crowds' in which Murray discusses at length the unlikely phenomenon of women buying artificial camel toes and rubber nipples to insert in their underwear for the titillation of males.

It's a strange idea, but I'm not sure that I would jump to saying he is wrong to say that young women have sexual power. That's a two edged thing and feminism tends to see it mainly from the exploitative side, but sexual power does exist, and some women have used it as a road to gain other kinds of power.

There are downsides and trade-offs to other avenues to power as well, it's not unique that the same thing can be something to be exploited and also something that can be used, or that not all people will be able to access it equally.

But just looking in terms of kinds of power that can be used to gan something, sexual power is on the list. I'm not sure I'd put any particular type top of the list though.

Sorry if I came across a bit strong on this. I just watched Douglas Murray recently in an interview on the Triggernometry podcast and the bit about women and sexual power really pissed me off. It wasn't even the content of what was being said, it was the tone of it. Watching 3 men all laughing and agreeing with each other about attractive women manipulating poor married CEOs and how feminists love to whine about everything. It left a really sour taste in my mouth.

I enjoyed DM's book The Madness of Crowds. It was well written and raises good questions. I did find the chapters on feminism and race to be the weakest though. Although that's not massively surprising as it's two things he lacks a personal perspective on.

I agree with your points twohopes. One of the difficult things I've found about this whole gender mess is because it's been so overtly violent, volatile and insidious in a way I've never experienced in my lifetime I've found myself slightly inoculated against everyday sexism.

By that I mean it's harder to sweat the smaller stuff when the world has literally gone insane. It's almost like transactivism is a massive MRA psy- op.

I do think Douglas Murray is a voice of sanity about freedom of speech at the moment but I do agree with twoHopes about the feminism.

I didn't like his take on feminism in Madness of Crowds. It was pretty traditionalist. Women shouldn't mind paying a so-called penalty for childbearing and rearing becuase it can be one of the most rewarding aspects of human life. What he didn't address at all is that men get to have children just the same but not pay the economic penalty. Which is the entire point and hence our "endless register of resentment and greed" (his words).

Furthermore, if I recall correctly, I'm not sure he addressed the point that trans as a concept is pretty ephemeral whereas the differences between the sexes is very real. I resent having my oppression as a woman, even if we are x% there in the UK, compared to the faux fight for 'rights' the TRAs are pressing for.

@Deanetta

This bit stuck out at me:

They had spoken up — as reporter after reporter put it – against Rowling’s ‘controversial’ views. It is a very interesting thing this modern use of the word ‘controversial’, often and indeed usually put in front of a person who holds views which are in absolutely no way controversial.

I am so glad someone has said it. The BBC headline on Radio 4 the other morning, without going into any detail, said 'Rowling's controversial tweet'. It's such a charged word without anyone realising it. Controversial seems to be taken as 'outrageous', 'going against the widely held public opinion'. JKR's stance is not controversial at all.. but we have a world (including me) that's too scared to say it openly.

Argh I am all angry again and not getting on with my work!!

The redefining of controversial was the bit that struck me too, Deanetta. It is a clever tactic as it makes the ordinary person who believes in biological sex feeling that this idea is now behind the curve and outdated.

I agree that he is coming to this from an ultimately conservative idea of womanhood but that's fine. Most people believe that trans people must have exactly the same rights as everyone else but that sometimes there are conflicts of rights and compromises need to be reached. That viewpoint covers people from almost all political backgrounds.

I wish that were true, Rocaille. I think many younger women now spend ridiculous amounts of time and money 'titillating' themselves, including removing all their pubic hair, daily application of false eyelashes, teetering around in 'fuck-me heels' (was it Suzanne Moore who called them that?) It's standard now for a large section of the female population, to the point where one Cambridge don lamented to me the other day about the hour or so her female students were taking to get made up every day before coming into college.

@Justhadathought

The one thing I do disagree with him on, is that this issue of suggesting anyone who says they identify as a woman makes them a woman, is a very small and inconsequential issue. It isn't.

I agree

Oh though ive just read thinend post

So now i dont know

Great article.

I don't agree with Douglas Murray on everything at all. But some of what he says is very interesting.

So I watched some interesting things he did. (I fear I may overuse 'interesting' because I don't find myself agreeing with all he says by any means, but he asks loads of questions that others are less likely to ask!)

Nov 2019

Murray with Lionel Shriver, again not necessarily a fan of hers either, (never heard her before or read her books) but this is very a engaging look at 'identity politics'.

I think what Lionel says at 1:04-1:06, (speaking in Oct 2019) is fascinating in light of where we are now.

I don't know who he is. The contempt with which he writes about people puts me off caring what he thinks.

I don't think Murray is contemptuous, I think his writing is waspish in the Wildean tradition and therefore stings at times. His views on feminism are uncomfortable to read, but I think it's healthy to examine one's own strongly held opinions occasionally to make sure you aren't being swept along unthinkingly by ideology. To give him credit he examines his own 'tribe' with equal scepticism in The Madness of Crowds.

[quote MockersGuidedByTheScience]And where our heroes "Speak Out" against the Wicked Witch and her "Controversial Views," the Witch "Tries to explain herself."

edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/entertainment/jk-rowling/index.html[/quote]
Her "anti-trans" views, don't forget!

I am surprised to find myself agreeing with DM on various aspects of ID politics. He speaks with anger and compassion about the transing of children and destruction of lesbian spaces. He passionately defends Greer and Bindel, despite presumably having little in common with them.

I disagree with some of his views but refuse to dismiss people in entirity for that these days. I'm surprised that PP found him contemptuous. I don't get that vibe at all.

I think with Douglas Murray's point about women using their sexuality to gain power/influence, it's a question of

1. how often is it the other way around with men in positions of power exploiting women who don't welcome sexual attention,
2. how much actual power is gained by women using their sexual allure and how often,
3. what are the consequences for women if they refuse a man's advances,
4. how difficult is it for women to get ahead in a workplace compared to a man.

All things he conveniently fails to address in his analysis, which is essentially victim blaming. It's of course the case that some women have been on the casting couch to get a job, but this is due to the structural inequalities of the system, that has always favoured men and chastises women who try to be bold and assertive. I'm not excusing those women who do use their sexuality, but all the above issues of context can't be ignored. Disappointing in one who always comes across as 'the voice of reason', he clearly has a lot of prejudice when it comes to women's issues.

he clearly has a lot of prejudice when it comes to women's issues

To be honest when I hear Douglas Murray talk about women it's clear he has no idea what it's like to be female. Growing up with no sisters and going to an all boys private school won't have helped. Being gay also means he won't have had a close relationship with a woman in the form of a partner. I don't think he's necessarily mal-intentioned, it just seems like a massive blind spot for him.

I don't think he's necessarily mal-intentioned, it just seems like a massive blind spot for him.
Perhaps partially, but it also would suit him to think that women are entirely equal and there's no more work to be done so he doesn't have to think about the unfair advantages he's had in life, wouldn't it? Same with the Triggernometry lads. I enjoy watching their interviews and am glad they tackle the subjects they do, but I always feel there's a lot of thinly veiled sense of putting women back in their box and enforcing traditional views of men and women' roles/abilities etc. I agree with you to an extent though, there might be an element of him having the experience of being a gay man and the obstacles that brings, but him having the attitude of ' just get on with it' and thinking women should too. Well, of course, we do, we put up and shut up the vast majority of the time, what we talk about is the tip of the iceberg and even then we are told to 'choke on a dick' and centre men's feelings. He's ignorant to the extent of the inequalities between men and women, yes, it's no excuse.

Douglas Murray is part of a shrinking group who are still courageous enough/independently wealthy enough to say what they believe is ‘true’ without having to give a shit about what the ‘mob’ is demanding we believe/say

In these times this is becoming increasingly rare and increasingly important.

I don’t agree with many of his opinions, but that is true of pretty much everyone. I think I am probably the only person who holds the same opinions as me on all aspects of life.