Thoughts on The Danish Girl

[JKRowlingTransExplosion]

I’ve name changed for this post, mainly because “J K Rowling trans explosion” was how I described Twitter to my partner this morning and I thought that phrase needs to be either a Mumsnet handle or a punk band.

The Redmayne debacle got me thinking back to when I went to see The Danish Girl at the pictures, which was before I knew anything at all about the trans rights debate (beyond being liberal and supportive of trans people as part of the LGBT umbrella), and even before I recognised that I was a radical feminist.

I thought the film was very poor in terms of writing and structure, but also at the time it really annoyed me because I thought it was an insulting portrayal of transexuality - a missed opportunity to provide insight and understanding into a marginalised group.

I thought it was absolutely ridiculous that Redmayne’s character put on a pair of stockings and immediately realised he was a woman. I thought it was superficial and unrealistic.I found it offensive - on behalf of transwomen - that being a woman was portrayed as nothing more than dragging up and mincing about. There’s more to it than that, I thought. Real women don’t mince - why on earth has he suddenly started mincing and simpering? Real transwomen don’t just put on women’s underwear one day and suddenly realise - in that very sexualised context - that they’re actually a woman.

The characterisation of his wife was just as annoying too - she was a walking cliche.

I’m somewhat fascinated that my instinctive response to the film was “that’s not what a woman is” and to find it offensive for both women and transwomen.

These days, I’m not so sure that the film was off the mark.

He gives me the creeps. Always has. Only went to see FB because it was linked to Harry Potter.

Oops pressed send

Anyway I tried to watch it -thought it was interesting subject matter and liked ER as an actor - but I turned it off shortly after that initial scene with the fetishisation of putting a pair of stockings on. Made me feel physically nauseated and offended on behalf of my sex. That’s not what a woman is. I’d love to give it another chance tbh, always meant to but now ER has come out with the anti-woman sentiment that he has, he’s kinda ruined enjoying his films for me. Except perhaps to chuckle at Jupiter Ascending .

@Rubidium

Eddie Redmayne, king of the blank stare into the middle distance.

^ Nailed it.

I remember watching this film with DP and I have to say we were both and quite a bit about what he looked like in a dress and that he had men fawning over him because he was so “beautiful.” It reminded me of when Bugs Bunny puts lipstick on and everyone is wolf whistling at him because he’s instantly supposed to be gorgeous.

Sorry, childish I know.

The story was very badly told imho. One minute he was perfectly happy with his wife, the next she’d persuaded him to try a dress on and he instantaneously felt compelled to ruin his own health. I’m sure there must have been more to the real story than that tbf.

It’s the Eton thing that makes me not able to believe in him as actor. As soon as l know someone is an Old Etonian l can’t get past the masters of the universe entitlement thing.
On my street the person who has been organising our Covid neighbourhood involvement is an OE, he assumed leadership yet gets everyone else to do the actual work bit. We call him King Phil. 😂😂
King Phil knows everything and is always right !

I quite liked him in the Stephen Hawking movie, but I found him creepy in The Danish Girl for all the reasons already mentioned - too much simpering, face tilting and peering out from beneath his hair, Princess Diana-style.

@Fairenuff

I've opted out of organ donation for this reason alone.

I don't get this - what did I miss?

Much like everyone else has said really, I found old Liver Lips' performance as a simpering, breathy, softly spoken laydeee very annoying and just felt sorry for the wife, especially knowing 2 trans widows personally, being stuck between wanting the person you love to be happy, but knowing that butchering oneself is very rarely the route to true happiness. I watched it hoping to be swayed in some way that it wasn't all about AGP but sadly it did nothing to convince me of that.

For a more interesting film with gender transition as a key part of the storyline, we watched “Predestination” recently with Ethan Hawke. Don’t read anything about the storyline before you watch it; it’s about time travel and has Ethan Hawke in it, anything else and you’ll spoil yourself!

I’d be really interested to hear what people other then ‘us’ think of The Danish Girl, tbh. To me, from the bit of it I got through, it seemed so obviously offensive to women it’s not a surprise that posters on this board (mostly populated by gender critical feminists) don’t like it. But do ‘cis’* people who believe in gender like it/don’t see any offence? Do transwomen who believe they are women due to their ‘gender identity’ see it as an accurate portrayal of their experience? What do gender critical transwomen think of it? I’d be interested to hear, if any of the ploppers/monitors/teller-offers that hang around here fancied an actual human conversation

*using ‘cis’ here specifically to mean people who happily refer to themselves as such, not just blanket anyone-that’s-not-trans, hope that’s within guidelines.

Cwenthryth I have a friend who watched it, someone who has a daughter trying to transition, so very supportive of the idea that being transgender is expressing your 'authentic self'. She thought that it's progress that someone who feels that they are a woman can be open about it today and it's sad they couldn't in the past. So essentially, she fell for all the simpering. There was no further level of critical engagement with it, and I think that the majority of people going along with TWAW are like her. It seems to be mainly aggressive, middle class white men that dominate Twitter with the whole trans extremist agenda. That's why I think the battle will never be won on Twitter, it's more the average men or women who don't spend their lives on social media and are just trying to be kind that could probably be peaked more easily by pointing out how batshit some of the claims and proposals being made are, things that they're probably not even aware of. Most people haven't been brainwashed by queer theory (yet!) and won't be conned into believing in female penises etc.

For a more interesting film with gender transition as a key part of the storyline, we watched “Predestination” recently with Ethan Hawke

I love a bit of sci fi, and being a Trek fan, i'm not a stranger to a temporal paradox or two, but that film was bloody mental.

@Cwenthryth

This was my initial point really - before I was radicalised by mumsnet I was all for TWAW (though I knew little about it), and I thought the film was an offensive portrayal of women and transwomen (because I assumed there had to be more to being trans than titting about in lingerie).

I read the book a while ago, saw a bit of the film and did think ER was rather beautiful as a woman (and would have been a hit on the stage in Shakespeare’s day) but never understood

1. when they talked about Lili bleeding, where was she/he bleeding from?
2. what the point of the second surgery (which likely killed lili) was?

All the trans stuff was a bit ethereal and disjointed to me, but maybe I just can’t relate to that.
I was far more interested in Greta’a journey through the book if I’m honest and really rooted for a happy life for her.

I think this film (and hearing ER pontificating on the radio about learning from “cisgender” women about how to be a woman) is what opened my eyes to the trans debate. All the breathy brave smiling, the post-ops hope to have a baby someday (wtf), making his wife and friends play along with the fetish (cringe at the male friend visiting the house and being introduced to “lady” friend just visiting).

Plus all the graceful wafting of arms in the air and looking at his hands. Yeah right, that’s absolutely every woman’s lived experience of being female.

Textbook autogynephile. I'm surprised the film was so open about the fetishistic aspect of the crossdressing.

Exactly. The stocking scene was shocking only in that it was allowed - it showed AGP so clearly as the fetish it is. (My traaaaaaaaaans ex also started with a stocking/pantyhose fetish.)

I saw the trailer, and there wasn’t enough room on my face for my eyes to roll.
He was twirling around in a fancy dress and fluttering his eyelashes, it was absolutely nauseating, and his face has annoyed me ever since, because all I can see is the simpering. So cringey.

I think a lot of women are very protective of gay men, and most women are not aware of the differences between gay men and transsexuals, who as we know are often opposite-sex attracted. The film plays on this sympathy women have with the film's tagline 'Find the courage to be yourself'. Clearly, that isn't allowed for women, I'm sure Elbe's wife's 'true self' was not to be an enabler for her husband's cross-dressing, but it's assumed women simply exist to support men - unfortunately, female socialisation means a lot of women watching will go along with the film's propaganda.

*sorry, I meant transwomen in general rather than transsexuals specifically are often opposite sex attracted.

Transwomen are not mostly opposite sex attracted. That is true of old school transexuals, but not of transwomen.

Transwomen are not mostly opposite sex attracted. That is true of old school transexuals, but not of transwomen.
I don't understand. Why are they constantly telling women to 'suck my ladydick' then?

'I've opted out of organ donation for this reason alone'

I don't get this - what did I miss?

It was related to the discussion about dying:

'Never watched it but didn't he die after trying to get a BIO female womb implanted?'

'Do you see why I am only leaving certain donor organs. Take my eyes. Take my liver (rotted through lockdown) take anything. But not my tissue. No way.'

Aah sorry, my confusion, not enough coffee. I meant same sex attracted, I must have misunderstood the post I was commenting on. To clarify transsexuals are normally same sex attracted, but not
Transwomen.
I didn’t get much sleep ! Should proof read my posts.

JKRowlingTransExplosion (OP) wrote - "I thought it was absolutely ridiculous that Redmayne’s character put on a pair of stockings and immediately realised he was a woman. I thought it was superficial and unrealistic.I found it offensive - on behalf of transwomen - that being a woman was portrayed as nothing more than dragging up and mincing about."

Many transgender people and their supporters do hold superficial, unrealistic, stereotypical and misogynistic opinions about "what is a woman". I wish they did not hold those opinions but we are where we are. I think it is illogical and unrealistic to expect transgender people, if they don't like women, to be offended on behalf of women when they see a film that reinforces their own negative or stereotypical views of women.

You are trying to be kind to transgender people by showing empathy for their portrayal in films. I'll just note here that it is very unlikely to happen the other way round. I'll be very surprised if someone can link to a discussion on a transgender forum discussing how offended they are, by cinema's negative portrayal of the women linked to a transgender character. I doubt that there are discussions on transgender forums about what a raw deal Elbe's wife got. Transgenderism ideology has been deliberately designed to be devoid of empathy for women.

I think it is important to remember that Redmayne was not playing the role of a woman in "The Danish Girl". He was playing the role of Lili Elbe - a male transgender person who wanted to be a woman.

Many male transgender people discover that dressing in feminine clothing leads them to conclude that they want to become women, or even leads them to a belief that wearing feminine clothing and coquettishly simpering or mincing makes them women. The life stories of this type of transgender person are described in numerous books and are also all over the internet. There appears to be evidence (not necessarily in "The Danish Girl" film) suggesting that Elbe displayed some behavioural traits and insulting negative stereotype beliefs about women that are typical of this type of transgender person.

If Elbe did simper coquettishly and mince in real life, then Redmayne gave an accurate and realistic portrayal of Elbe and the behaviours that are typically shown by a type of transgender person. But if Elbe did not behave as depicted by Redmayne's portrayal, then Redmayne and the film's production team are at fault.

I have no idea if the film is an accurate portrayal of Lilli Elbe or not, and I am not trying to be kind, but I think I was at the time. Not out of a sense of liberal duty, but because I genuinely thought the film was doing a disservice to trans women.