Is BLM a trojan horse?

[Thingybob]

Am I the only one feeling uneasy about the BLM movement?

We make space for transgender brothers and sisters to participate and lead

We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise)

blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

It's been interesting to me the extent to which many people seem to really think that the purpose of a political protest is just to show a kind of amorphous anger,

Just Anger, not amorphous anger.

If those in power like to pretend that the anger directed towards them is amorphous then they are not listening. They are not seeking a solution. They are just pretending and using distraction to excuse themselves.

The 13 Guiding Principles says absolutely nothing like what you claim.

Of the 469 words, 50 talk about the goal of restorative justice replacing punishment for the sake of vengeance, and 41 more have a goal of empathy and loving engagement. That’s 91 words you missed. Or ignored.

You also missed the 49 words on diversity, the 48 words on valuing all people, the 93 words on family and community, the 40 words on black pride, the 19 words on women.

You got all freaked out over 56 words - 11% of the statement - acknowledging part of the community and used that as an excuse to dismiss and mischaracterize everything else.

If those in power like to pretend that the anger directed towards them is amorphous then they are not listening.

If there is no theory of racism and no mechanism, and no looking at the data about police violence, and no political program, it's amorphous and vague. There is no political action to take. It's pretend politics.

Great post janeskettle.

Good morning, Smile. Refreshed and ready for another day of finger wagging and scolding?

No, it's not. It's just subject to the same entryism that's resulted in every other leftist movement regurgitating the same verbiage. I've been at BLM protests in the US. They're generally not led by transwomen.

I agree with Jane's Kettle - great post. I also stand by what I said earlier in the thread which is that I think BLM is more like Troy than the actual horse. In other words, the TRA horse is infiltrating it rather than it being the horse, as it were.

I was looking for another video, but stumbled onto this one from last year. I've started listening to it and it sounds really fascinating right from the start.

Is anyone here willing to discuss the points raised? I wonder how much of it I would agree with (I'm only 15 minutes in), but I like to challenge my presumptions and listen to well reasoned arguments.

Smile, we each have our own experience. People I knew who went to the BLM demonstration were all affluent white middle class with nice, expensive homes, and on the wrong side of 50.

It is all such fun. Trot along to Trafalgar Sq, meet up with friends, in normal times go for a drink or meal afterwards (I’m surprised London restaurants don’t offer post demo menus) and then post about it on Fb, Insta, or Twitter. The cause may vary, but as long as it does not affect your comfortable life, why not signal your awareness. You are young because you never had to grow up.

Iceland, in contrast was full of black people leading lives that matter. (It’s lockdown remember, so my big outing. I can’t be arsed to queue for Waitrose or Sainsbury’s.) No time to demonstrate. Working as cashier, security guard, or shelf filler. Shopping for family. I really hope that lockdown has made us all more aware of the people who, day to day, keep our country going, many of whom are black. They need to be appreciated. I would strongly support a movement that demands equality and seeks to reduce the wealth gap. From my own, limited prism, the demonstrations may have started a debate, but to achieve real change there needs to be substance.

It isn't just about politics. It is about you and me. What are you going to do to make change

The most lasting changes one can make, and that goes for everyone, regardless of skin colour, is to examine oneself and to open one's heart, and to make choices and decisions out of a feeling of personal integrity and moral conscience.

So, for example, when you wake up to the exploitation and suffering of animals, you tend to become vegan or vegetarian. You certainly don't eat at McDonald's after a protest. You attempt to align your beliefs with your practices, and in a consumer culture you make changes to how and what you spend your money on. You also try to buy fair trade products or similar, and avoid the products of a company that is known to employ indentured labour, as another example.

Of course. we cannot each personally do anything to change overnight what we perceive as detrimental wider cultural practices; all we can do is our personal best within certain pre-existing conditions. It is difficult to avoid certain things in a culture which is saturated with them, but good intention and desire for change goes a long way.

Real change does not come from trying to silence others, though, or make demands on them that don't accord with their feelings of personal integrity or free agency. not many are n ever going to shut up if they fundamentally disagree with what is being requested of them, or told to them.

Now that might sound flowery, but it is actually the only way to heal and become more conscious. No one group, in totality, is responsible for the sufferings of others. Being told that you are personally responsible for the sufferings of a whole other group of human beings is both pointless and achieves nothing.

Just Anger, not amorphous anger

Any emotion without a consciously channelled target is amorphous.
Free floating love is amorphous, until focused onto a specific cause, person or passion. Anger without consciousness and direction is just destructive.

Lobbying words on a keyboard to rationalise myopic viewpoints?

Not sure if you mean lobbing or lobbying - but that's a fantastic description of the TRAs!

Not all the feminists on this thread are radical. I'm not, for starters. And no one is 'fighting against trans', whatever that means. There are lots fighting for women, however. And there is no racism that I can see.

It doesn't matter how many times you attempt to circle that square. Taking the high ground regarding protests for EQUALITY. If you do not believe equality is a right and you arent doing anything to ensure that right is there for all. Where do you think you sit? Lobbying words on a keyboard to rationalise myopic viewpoints

There is equality in law..but there is never going to be equality of outcome; because people are different from each and make different choices in life based on their values.

You keep going on about 'trans' and have outlined my view that sex is real and one cannot change sex. What else do you want me to say? Beyond that there is much disagreement about the nature of gender; what it is; and what it implies.

Try explain which equivalence you are trying to make? Or rather shoe-horn me into?

Really? Or perhaps the radical feminists who fight against Trans whilst ignoring all other fights...and as we have seen on this thread some have outed themselves to have outwardly racist views

i haven't read any racist views on this board, apart from yours, to be honest.

Where are the racist posts?
Do you mean posts in which people disagree about certain things?

Lobbying words on a keyboard to rationalise myopic viewpoints

That is exactly what you seem to be doing. People have tried to engage wit you in good faith, and you just keep coming back with dismissive put downs and sweeping generalisations. No content.

Hi Smile, let's take this opportunity to centre the voices of black people.

Let's start with this video.

How about we have a discussion on the points raised by the people in the video?

Really? Or perhaps the radical feminists who fight against Trans whilst ignoring all other fights...and as we have seen on this thread some have outed themselves to have outwardly racist views

Fighting to protect women's & girls spaces is the main object for me...because they are required and valued. I have no fight with people who want to 'identify' as anything they like, as long as they don't impose on the dignity, comfort and safety of my sex. Sex is real. It is something you are born with. It resides in the body and the DNA.

Honest question. What is your view on trans racialism? Can one actually become black if one was not born black? Does it matter if someone claims to be black if they are white? If so, why does it matter?

Smile, I do not see the automatic link between black and trans.

Nor the automatic link between a slogan and effective action.

I am quite goal orientated. You seem more righteous. With BLM my approach would be: there appears to be a problem; what is this problem; what are the causes; what might be an effective solution; how might we get to that solution.

Ditto with trans. What is the problem? What are effective solutions? (Here I personally do not think medicating minors, or denying vulnerable women single sex spaces, or denying female athletes the chance of a level playing field are effective solutions.) The #nodebate from Stonewall has led to a confusion where I am not sure many understand the underlying problem that needs to be solved. All we hear is TWAW and are then shut down when we try to explore the issue. The real learning the BLM movement might take, is that they need societal change, and to achieve that they need to engage the wider society. I want to return to Iceland, have pleasant exchanges when needed (last time over the price of bin liners - the cashier let me have them for the lower of the two possible prices, even though I had assumed the higher) and not notice what colour people are. I want more equality, but then again including white people suffering deprivation. I want a more equal society with proper respect for everyone.

I haven't read the thread, and I'm not going to - I'm just going to answer the original post.

And my answer is FFS no, BLM is not a Trojan horse, don't be bloody ridiculous. BLM is a movement as well as a series of organisations, and any progressive movement is both bound to have a wide range of opinions within it, and also be subject to entryism. And BLM is an enormous movement, spanning many countries and god knows how many people, and will as a result encompass all sorts, from radfems to TRAs and everything in between, as well as countless people who have previously not considered this issue at all. We know this already.

I do wonder if this OP has been posted with a mischievous intent in mind to provide misogynist twitter with a few choice "views" to screenshot.