I simply cannot comprehend the whole gender debate

[Cornana]

As a lesbian, it doesn’t make sense. It seems like people- particularly on Twitter- have to do so much stretching and reaching to make their explanations fit in.

I am a lesbian because I like people with vaginas- women. This, to the masses, makes me a “genital fetishist”.

The woke definition is now, “any non-man attracted to a non-man.” But anyone can be a non-man if they ‘choose’ to be. Ie, a man- not even on oestrogen- can say “I’m a women” and all of a sudden they are part of the lesbian dating pool? By this logic, and self identification, labels such as lesbian literally have no meaning anymore. As anyone can be a ‘non-man’ or a ‘lesbian.’

I don’t know if it’s everything going on, but I’m feeling exhausted by all of it. I have no issue with trans people existing, I have trans friends. I use their pronouns, I try my best to respect them. My trans friends happily agree with me that this kind of language is ridiculous, yet slowly it is making it’s way into every area of my life that is LGBT.

It’s got me thinking- the LGB part can’t fit in with the trans narrative much longer surely? Maybe it once could, but you can’t keep rewriting labels and what ‘gay’ and ‘lesbian’ mean. Even with all the re-labelling, and over-explaining they don’t make sense. They clash so clearly already.

I’m just tired of “messing up” in LGBT spaces because I said something considered transphobic, my language wasn’t inclusive enough or I have to put up with being told I just have a “genital preference which is nothing to do with being actually a lesbian.”

Sorry if this has been covered already, I’m fairly new to this area and it’s one of the only places online I won’t get torn apart.

Basically none of it makes sense to me, at all. It just leaves me feeling bewildered and wondering how politically correct I have to be in everyday life. Luckily the woman I am seeing is very gender-critical. It is one of the first things she asked me, so I’m slowly learning.

Also, if someone could tell me what is actually “transphobic.”

In my mind

injuring a trans person because they are trans = transphobic
saying an opinion or stating I only like biological women = not transphobic, unless you are a TRA

If I have used any wrong language, please let me know.

I hear you 💐

As a bisexual woman, the trans community seem to see me as some sort of fetish, and I should automatically be attracted to them because "I like both, so why wouldn't I date an intact trans-woman" and if I refuse their advances I am called transphobic! I am bullied because I won't submit. It's infuriating.

you are not wrong.

We've had loads of genderist people come and chat on here, posting all sorts, getting involved, asking questions of the gender-critical women on here. I'd point you to the posts where they answered any of your questions clearly, but they never, ever, have.

Jigglypuffs- It’s insulting to me after years of being traumatised because I ‘had’ to be straight that I now have to like biological males. Everyone online says “no one expects lesbians to have sex with transwoman,” but that’s not true. It’s happened to me multiple times. I have bisexual friends who have the same problems you do, because bisexual now means “two or more genders,” in woke Twitter.

Pope- that’s interesting. Even amongst the very extreme TRA’s online there are disagreements. I have a friend who has detransitioned and some of the abuse he has received- from his own past community- has been horrible.

Welcome to the club, Cornana!

You're a perfectly sane, rational person like the vast majority of the public. Most people reach similar conclusions as you do, once they start looking into the debate and try to understand it. It's a very topsy turvy ideology that makes no sense.

Take your time reading about gender identity ideology. There's a lot of information on these boards. Remember to also take breaks if it all starts to feel too crazy or exhausting. This stuff has been going on for a long time. It's only recently gotten wider public attention.

Nonny- thank you. I’ve tried to find some books for wider reading. I even tried to ‘understand’ their side at first, but failed miserably. My mind is too logical to even go there.

I have logged off Twitter after the JK Rowling debacle. I agree with what she said, but the amount of people disagreeing with her is exhausting.

I literally don't know what's going on anymore. Just tell me what you want me to call you like...

No wonder people are confused if you can't even be a straight up (excuse the word) lesbian these days!

Anyway, don't feel bad about it. You aren't to know if someone is one way or another or neither unless they tell you.

You’ve come to the right place. Pull up a chair and keep talking! The women here will keep you sane (as well as amazing you with their intelligence and common sense).

I’m just tired of “messing up” in LGBT spaces because I said something considered transphobic

I'm gay and I stopped hanging out in LGBT spaces a couple of years ago as it was just so exhausting having to bite my tongue all the time. I got to the point where I realised I just didn't have any reason to be there any more and didn't feel welcome. Basically, the only way I could fit in was by pretending to be something I wasn't and it just got too tiresome and stressful.

About a year ago, I found myself at a (ridiculously woke) 'feminist' social meetup and was talking to two other women. One described herself as pansexual. I said I was a lesbian and the pansexual one looked at me with disdain and said "I don't understand why everyone can't be pansexual - why does it matter what sex someone is?".

Christ on a bike they go on and on and on about accepting everybody and being inclusive and not hurting anyone's feelings and wanting to feel safe and not be discriminated against. Why can't they accept everybody and be inclusive and not hurt anyone's feelings and want everyone to feel safe and not be discriminated against?

Basically none of it makes sense to me, at all.

That's because it's nonsense.

• I even tried to ‘understand’ their side at first, but failed miserably. My mind is too logical to even go there.

The failure is in their dogma, not you.

Sexuality is about sex. You fancy women. Females, not feminine men. Maybe there are some women whose sexuality is based on 'gender' who might fancy both - doesn't mean in any way that you should.

The 'gender fetishist' slur (and note that all actual fetishes are never spoken of with the same disapproval by the genderists, are they?funny that...) is an attempt to coerce you.

What was the largest LGB lobby group in the UK, now refuses to define homosexuality as same sex attracted in case it upsets the straight males.

They say a lesbian is a women who is attracted to other women.
This might look perfectly fine, until you realise that their description of women includes transvestite, cross dressers and other males.

A straight male telling a gay female to suck his dick and get over her "genital fetish" should be homophobic, rapey conversion therapy. Not in 2020.

How can we call out misogyny or homophobia if we can't name our sex.

Welcome Corona what you drinking? As PPs say, it is all nonsense that's why it doesn't make any sense, no one here (or on any other group or platform I've found) can answer sensible, reasonable questions and you're not wrong to find the whole thing ridiculous and frustrating.

I don't think you need it but I always recommend the Break it Down for me thread (you might enjoy the purity spirals one too) and generally reading around the FWR board. It helped me a lot as this place is how I found my way. It took some time to recover from the shock I can tell you!

Anyway, you're here now, make yourself comfortable xx

Sorry for the auto-spell, my phone turned your user name into the virus Cornana!

Sorry about that x

Are gay men still allowed to be attracted to other gay men or has the goal posts changed for them too?

By this logic, and self identification, labels such as lesbian literally have no meaning anymore.

Except for in all the countries where homosexuality is still criminalised or in religions where gay people are condemned to eternal damnation.

But never mind, think of all the sponsorship available to Stonewall now that it is heterosexual inclusive!

Cornana, have you had a look at LGB Alliance? Stonewall's successor!

Sadly not justanother

The cotton ceiling is lesbians not being free from accusations of bigotry and transphobia for rejecting men as sexual partners.

The boxer ceiling (Facebook) has examples of the same for gay men. There are some very confused, bitter women out there who are pretty angry that men who fancy men don't want to date or have sex with them because they are a woman.

I saw one woman who claimed to be 'trans', who was in a hereto relationship with a child who wanted the gay male cashier at her local store (USA) to flirt back with her, she was fuming that he didn't.

Welcome @Cornana! I love hanging out here as a safe space to learn and be feminist without being called a bigot.
I think the plight of lesbian women in this is one of the main things that peak transed me. It's fecking horrific that they're being called the things you've been called, when gays and lesbians fought for so long to be accepted.
There are LGB organisations realising that sexuality is not about gender and setting up spaces away from the T. And there are some brilliant gay and lesbian GCs on Twitter if / when you feel strong enough to go there. Professional Judy is one of my faves.

Welcome, Cornana.

As far as I'm concerned, wrong language isn't really a thing, except in some really rare instances where it's pretty obvious a word is used to be deliberately offensive and aggressive.

As for this board, there are some rules on this board that I am a little bit hazy on, but 'cis' and 'terf' are not allowed, for example, nor is misgendering (I want to put 'misgendering' in brackets, because I find it an odd idea, but to be clear, it's not the word itself but the act that is disallowed - unless the person has committed a crime, afaik, like Karen White).

Generally, if you're posting in good faith I think you will be fine. Also best to post in generalities rather than about one person specifically, unless they're in the public eye.

The whole problem is based around the idea that gender and sex are the same thing. They are not.

You are same sex attracted, not same gender attracted.

They hate that.

There is a strong activism going funded by a few very rich and very aggressive activists that gender and/or sex is a choice. In reality the vast majority of people don't really believe this but the minority keeps pushing their agenda and silencing concerns by labelling everything as transphobic and by being very aggressive about it.