The kink that dare not speak its name

[GCGayDad]

Just spotted this while scrolling through The Guardian. Last week's problem page I think: www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/may/01/boyfriend-sexual-kinks-i-find-abhorrent-resolve-differences#comment-140278165

While the agony aunt and the readers' comments seem largely reasonable, anyone on this forum will spot a glaring omission in the analysis of what's going on. I wonder if either
(a) the agony aunt and others are ignorant of AGP;
(b) she and they don't think the nature of the kink is relevant;
(c) editorial pressure has excluded any mention of AGP or trans issues:
Or (d) all three.

Any thoughts, @tinselangel and others?

No doubt all of the idiots who queue up on twitter to tell me AGP doesn't exist (despite it being all over the Internet), are Guardian readers.

Ghastly article and mostly ghastly comments.

There is nothing wrong with being repulsed by the idea of something sexually (leaving aside the issue of other problems with AGP). Women are allowed to say "no, not for me" without being prude shamed. They're even allowed to say "you know, the fact that you're into that sexually tells me something about your character/personality - and it's not something good." Sexual preferences don't exist in some sort of bubble, divorced from the rest of life. Sometimes (e.g. rape fantasies where the person is identifying with the perpetrator) they tell you something really important about the rest of the personality (this person is a scummy shitbag and I should run for the hills right now).

(Should add with AGP what that's telling you about the rest of the personality is that this is a man with very deeply engrained levels of misogyny, who doesn't see women as human beings but rather as props in his sexual fantasy landscape.)

Cara, having read the agony aunt"s response, I agree with you - it's awful.
But some of the readers' 'comments do, fortunately, make a similar point made by you, eg :

"Don't listen to anyone who tries to make you feel unempathetic or close minded. These aren't sexual kinks, they're indicative of an entirely different sexual outlook, in which your own identity and comfort zones are being slowly eroded to make room for his, with a nice thick layer of manipulative guilt tripping to make you feel old fashioned, insensitive or boring for not "giving it a go". If you removed the "wants to dress up as a woman" aspect and looked at your boyfriends behaviour simply for what it seeks to achieve, we would call it borderline abusive and we would call it misogyny because that is what it is.

"This way lies a long, dark slope that leads down to the eventual obliteration of any sense of self worth or identity you may once have had."

What is AGP? I've never heard of it and just googled but came up with loads of techie references to Accelerated Graphics Port.

1066vegan it’s autogynephilia

Thanks. Just looked it up.

Why should people be expected to be open to any kink that doesn't appeal to them? Expecting women to be open to AGP is particularly odd and unacceptable, given the blatant sexism involved, but also as a general principle, if something doesn't appeal to you then it just doesn't and there's no reason you should have to talk yourself out of that response. Many fish in the sea, no reason not to go find one whose company you actually enjoy.

What if the kink isn't simply a fetish based on feminine things but has underlying that a kink of making women do what they don't want to do? What if the sexual thrill comes from the breaching of another person's boundaries and making them engage in sexual activities with coerced "consent"? I've been thinking for a while that it's this underlying non-consent transgression that drives many of these men.

This was discussed a few weeks ago when it was first published - I'm adding the link as there were some pretty powerful points made.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3896938-Disappointing-advice-in-the-Guardian

What's the difference between a kink and a fetish?

And if there is a difference - are they both mental heath problems that only (or mostly) men have?

(I've noticed on these boards that if anyone dares to suggest these things are mental issues it really rattles some people's cages.)

"health" obviously.

Oh nauticant you've put words on what I have felt for a while.
Many "kinks" or "lets expand our boundaries" are not about throwing off the shackles of prudery.
It's more about the power of making a person do something that they dont want to do.
And anyone who doesn't think power and sex are intricately entwined, just hasn't grown up yet.

It's the same with BDSM.
The prevailing view is that the partner getting off on being humiliated/dominated is doing so because they want to let go of control. They get to be free from societies expectations of them.

But I don't think this is true. All AGP and BDSM participants have a strict script to play out. The person isn't being dominated, they are enforcing their script. My AGP partner would get enraged if i deviated from his script. So who is ultimately in control? It's a dominating sexual act, but played out as if the one who has no power has all the power. It totally screws with your mind when you get into this power dynamic, for both the one enforcing the script and the one being the actor (either coerced or not). Its really unhealthy for everyone.

I hope my ramble makes some sort of sense, not sure it does for anyone who hasn't been involved with this type of relationship.

Surely most women have at least a couple of kinks?

I’ve never dated a woman who didn’t have at least or or two specific things she enjoyed sexually.

It's worth remembering it's not just one thing. There are men who fetishise feminine objects and behaviours. There are men whose thrill comes from getting into women's single sex spaces. This looks to be a form of voyeurism. There are men who want to coerce women to engage in sexual activities they don't want. This is recognisable as sexual abuse.

There's lots of overlap and there are men who fall into two or three categories.

As MightyMike it's all about power and is very unhealthy and is damaging for women. It seems to have hatred of women as its core.

What's the difference between a kink and a fetish?

I think the difference is that whatever the fetish is, that's almost always needed for arousal and sexual enjoyment whereas the kink is a preference not a necessity?

God I must be the most boring person alive. When I have sex, I just want to feel connected to my partner emotionally and through our bodies. No kinks or fetishes from either of us. Well, he likes big boobs and I like piv, but that's it. No choking, no anal, no rubber, no dressing up, no slapping.
Are kinks essential these days? DH and I have been together over 30 years so maybe we missed developing kinks somewhere along the line

Chocolateyasfuck. I deliberately didn't mention the sex of the person with a fetish. I think it's been acknowledged that both men and women use fetishes as a way of re-enacting out past trauma/abuse. It's a way of taking control of something you felt powerless of in the past.

My AGP partner has a fetish, he cannot function sexually without it. He had huge trauma as a child. Gender stereotypes were enforced rigourously by his mother, coupled with severe bullying at a violent allboys school. He was a sensitive boy who was constantly told he was a girl/sissy by his friends and his family. I get why he takes control of that early trauma by reclaiming it. I also understand it's not healthy for him and its not healthy for me either. I am basically being asked to abuse him.

A woman or man who uses a bit of slap and tickle in the bedroom as a bit of a laugh, who doesn't need it to function sexually, isn't kinky or has a fetish. They are just having mutual fun, a totally different scenario.

nauticant. Yes it is about power. Now let's ask where the huge need for control comes from, then we begin to understand, then we can help people make happier and healthier choices in their lives. No one seems to want to truly understand the nature of sexual disfunction, many men and women are leading miserable lives because of this.

What if the kink isn't simply a fetish based on feminine things but has underlying that a kink of making women do what they don't want to do? What if the sexual thrill comes from the breaching of another person's boundaries and making them engage in sexual activities with coerced "consent"? I've been thinking for a while that it's this underlying non-consent transgression that drives many of these men.

Yes, that's what I get from many of them too.

And not just with AGP, it's the underlying transgression and getting off on the non-consent of others that drives many fetishes. For those asking if there's a difference on average between men and women and "kinks", there it is.

I find it somewhat concerning that part of her partner's idea of being treated like a woman involves being called derogatory names.

No one seems to want to truly understand the nature of sexual disfunction

Indeed. In fact there's a push to celebrate sexual dysfunctions, to bring them into the mainstream, and to remove women's right to say "I want no part of that".

Callimanco

You are definitely not boring or unusual, because my DW and I have been together a similar amount of years and we simply love each other. We don't feel the need to dress up, hit or choke each other.
We are both over sixty and still hold hands when we go for walks.
Isn't it enough to love someone, make them feel happy?

What Andy just said and Callimanco earlier.