How feminist views change as you get older

[Michelleoftheresistance]

Or films that make you go hmm....

I remember being shown several key women's films while I was doing A levels and at university, in one case studying women writers. Shirley Valentine was one, Educating Rita was another. I got the general key messages at the time: women trying to escape the stereotypes to be more, to be allowed to be themselves, to seek their own fulfilment instead of someone else's, the unfairness of societal roles.

I saw Educating Rita again a few days ago, not having seen it in decades, and it was like watching a completely different film. For a start, when I first saw it as a teenager, I saw Rita as a mature student, an adult much older than me, where I watch it now and think she's early twenties, she's so young and there's vulnerability there I hadn't seen.

But the key message of that film for me watching it now is a triangle of incompetent males who were certain they could be happy if they could force Rita to be who they wanted. Her abusive father, her horrible husband, the creepy professor. All males, incapable of taking responsibility for themselves or their problems, trying to compel a woman to turn herself in to what they needed to fix them, and punishing her when she didn't do it right or it didn't work, or she dared to have boundaries.

Totally different insights. And don't get me started on My Fair Lady....

Has anyone else found their perspectives have shifted radically with different stages in their lives?

WinterAndRoughWeather
The Captain Marvel film sounds interesting.
I don't normally bother with superhero type films but this one sounds nicely subversive.

In fact, I think that Educating Rita is meant to be seen through a feminist lens and much of what you are picking up on is what Willy Russell wanted you to pick up on - it is a gender critical movie in that it critiques the gender roles and the limitation women faced at the time.

I wouldn't do anything differently, it isn't a criticism of the film, just talking about how differently I perceive it now compared to the way I did when I first saw it decades ago. If that's proving annoying, I'll shut up now.

No, not annoying. I'm just intrigued.

@WrathFaeKlopp

WinterAndRoughWeather The Captain Marvel film sounds interesting. I don't normally bother with superhero type films but this one sounds nicely subversive.

Captain Marvel is good (I say this as a fellow non-botherer with superhero films, which I have been forced to watch far more of than I would like to in an ideal world, but have a tween who needs taken to the cinema). I especially like the female friendship between Captain Marvel and her fighter pilot buddy. Also Jude Law as the gas-lighting "mentor" is very interesting as a character.

I have a soft spot for Wonder Woman, because (shoe-horned Chris thingy as love interest) it is a kick-ass film, and David Thewell is great (if unlikely). I loved the TV series from the early 80s too.

Going back to the issue of the 80s, one of the things that strikes me is that at the same time as these regressive films were popping (thinking about it, there's an excellent chapter on them in Susan Faludi's Backlash, with a lengthy discussion of Fatal Attraction), TV was doing some interesting things - Cagney and Lacy was one of the formative influences of my teens, a brilliant show.

Wonder Woman is a kick-ass film, undoubtedly - the fight choreography is fantastic and it’s well made. It’s just not for me, in any way, a feminist film, despite being touted as such.

I am just fascinated by the way male superhero fans love WW but loathe Captain Marvel - have a look at the insane comments under youtube clips of both films. See also how much they hate Rey in the recent Star Wars trilogy, who is in some ways a similar character to Marvel - she also gets dismissed as “bland”, but I find her interesting and relatable.

I quite like superhero / action movies, and given that an entire generation of kids is growing up watching them I think they’re worth analysing in terms of what messages they’re sending.

Totally agree re. "what message are they sending?"

And interesting to see history repeat itself. First (in release date order) Star Wars film: Leia is kick ass, takes charge of her own rescue when it becomes apparent the two blokes are just winging it. Second and third: relegated to love interest.

Early Avengers films - Black Widow is kick ass. Then... relegated to being Hulk's (Hulk's?!?!?!) love interest.

On the whole with the Marvel films, I find the big set-piece Avengers movies deathly dull, but some of the individual stand-alone movies are much better. Black Panther for instance has a lot of interesting female characters, and is definitely a Bechdel pass.

Yes the women in Black Panther are excellent, and much better than Black Panther himself, who is very dull. I think Nebula in the Guardians series is very good too (though in general I’m not that keen on those films). I found the sisters subplot in Guardians 2 very relatable.

I’m interested to see the Black Widow movie, she’s a great character. Though again, I think fanboys like her because she ultimately doesn’t challenge their worldview or patriarchal hegemony. She uses her sexiness as power, and that is acceptable to them because it reinforces the legitimacy of male sexual desire.

Yes, I find the whole Gamora-Nebula relationship fascinating too.

I was 18 when Grease came out. It was glaringly obvious how awful it was.

I’d started to wake up to stuff in my teens as well. But in 1978, at 18, after around 15 years of the second wave of the feminist movement calling out cultural sexism, you still think you just came to that conclusion yourself and that feminist writings are ‘impractical’? What was so ‘awful’ about Grease?

I loved Cagney and Lacey!

I've never seen Cagney and Lacey. Why is it problematic? X

Cagney and Lacy isn't "problematic" (a weasel word which I personally hate), it's a fantastic 2 hander between two women. Fabulous piece of TV and one which couldn't be commissioned today (specially not in America, specially not the episode where it turn out Lacy had an abortion when she was younger).

Apologies. I actually sat for a good 10 minutes trying to figure out how to word my question without making it sound abrasive, argumentative or demanding.. I still got it wrong.

Sorry - that was snarky of me.

It was an early 80s police procedural - Cagney and Lacy as first all female detective partnership in a New York Precinct - so they have to fight crime and sexism. It was brilliant. Cagney is the hard-bitten, single, Irish American with the retired cop dad, Lacy the Jewish married mum of two. (The twist with the abortion episode was that it was Lacy, the respectably married mum, who'd had an abortion herself and Cagney, the "different bloke every Friday night to blow off steam" one, who - due to Irish Catholic background - struggled with this.)

It's alright. I actually hate "problematic" too and it's probably the first time I've ever written it. I just couldn't think of a word that meant the same thing while still being quite soft and un-accusatory.
My first draft was:
"What's wrong with it?"
Which seemed too argumentative

I think I must have messed up the post I first mentioned it in - I was trying to set it up in contrast to all the crap 80s films (Pretty Woman, Grease, etc), not suggest that it deserved to be lumped in with them - Cagney and Lacy was bloody good.

Late to this! A PP:
"One of the things that fascinates me is how many 30s and 40s films, specially the screwball comedies, do stand the test of time. It's almost as if the old fashioned values of respect for women and behaving like a gentleman are more feminist-friendly than what followed."

I really agree with this. I think that what can be seen as old-fashioned patronising chivalry if you're young, naive and think you're invincible, could be perceived as a sophisticated understanding by some men - decent ones - that the world deals a shitty hand to women and decent men have a responsibility to try to counterbalance that.

I had a huge row with a boyfriend about Pretty Woman in the 90s. He thought he was an intellectual and a cineaste and as such, felt that it was his right to ascribe Merit to any piece of art which met with his approval. Which included Pretty Woman. I told him cheerfully I'd never been able to finish watching it as it made me feel ill. He interpreted this as a snobby anti-Hollywood stance, and an insult to his arty credentials, and I should just relax, not be so up myself, and allow myself to enjoy it. I said it wasn't a matter of choosing not to like it out of snobbery, but its content was upsetting to me; did he like to watch films for fun which made frothy light of slavery? (he was black) He became incredibly angry and said they were Not The Same Thing. I said, ok, if you want. But you can't tell me what I viscerally like and what I viscerally don't like; and let me tell you as a matter of fact that I, entirely non-intellectually, do not enjoy Pretty Woman, and what I do and do not like is one issue - the only issue - on which I am the expert, so I can't be lectured out of this position. At this point we were separated from our friends by several paces and rather awkwardly hissing at each other while they pretended not to notice. We got to the pub and sat apart from each other and he didn't speak to me for an entire weekend.

This is a great thread btw, thanks OP and everyone

Social media has shifted my views a lot. I was never very typically girly, a lot of my friends were male, I didn't have typically close, confiding relationships with any of my friends, including the women, they were just people I had fun with. When I started seeing women talking about constant harassment, how they or how many of their friends had been sexually assualted, experiences of being talked over and taken for granted at work, I think during my 20s and into my 30s I did think women must be complaining too much. It hadn't happened to me, none of my female friends had mentioned it - women must be complaining too much and I was the sensible objective one. Thankfully this was mostly pre social media so I wasn't saying any of this online....

Reading other women's experiences online I have realised I have just been lucky - I grew up in a 'nice' area where women didn't get hollered at in the street,;I think, frankly, given I spent my teens 20s and early 30s with very short hair (and I'm short, with small boobs) I just flew under the radar of the sort of men who like to harass women, and also I work in a field that's quite female-dominated and where the men in it don't tend to be 'alpha' types. So that combo meant I didn't experience the crap that a lot of women have been through. But none of that meant it wasn't what a lot of/most women did experience and when they say so, I believe them. I often use this to explain the problem to sceptical men - it's easy not to believe it if you don't experience it, but if you listen to women, you can't pretend they are 'making it up' and no, they don't 'like the attention', it's a real problem.

I've also got a lot more aware of emotional labour and the extra burden of care in general that women take on.

Echo: I spent my teens 20s and early 30s with very short hair (and I'm short, with small boobs) I just flew under the radar of the sort of men who like to harass women, and also I work in a field that's quite female-dominated and where the men in it don't tend to be 'alpha' types

I could also have written this. (Though I think a fuck of a lot of it is also due to dumb luck - I know other short-haired, flat chested women in my work area who have suffered sexual assault. I think it's the curse of "looking for an explanation of why you were lucky" - because to admit you were just lucky and got away with it is easier than admitting that it could have been you. The kind of magical "don't step on the cracks" thinking that underlies a lot of "advice" to women which can easily tip over into victim-blaming.)

I also totally get the feelings of fury, Senseless, of a man allowing himself the luxury of instinctive, visceral reactions to something while denying the women around him the same.

I didn't feel Wonder Woman was feminist. They had an entire island if kick ass women who had been training since the dawn of time to fight evil. Then evil came along and they all said right well we will ignore it and stay here while Diana goes to fight with a bunch of men. Plus the villain having facial scars, because everyone knows you must be physically perfect to be a goodie.

When I started working for a living 20 odd years ago, I genuinely believed in work place equality and that my chances were equal to men. Certainly lost that view over the years. The ftse 100 still only has 5 female leaders and for most, if not all, of the last decade had more board members named John than women.

I frequently hear people saying it should be the best person for the job, meaning they should be able to promote as many white men as they want if they interview "best". But that totally ignores equality of opportunity, treating people differently starts at birth. Then becoming a mother really made me understand loss of opportunity. I applied for an internal role and was told that they had to take me being part time (4 days per week) into account when they gave the job to someone else. They didn't even try to hide it.

Not a film but sex and the city is very dated now. With the exception of Samantha they are all just a bit desperate.

"is it just life experience that makes you start thinking, this bloke who is supposed to be complex and fascinating and/or tragic is actually an irresponsible mess "

Well, in Educating Rita it's obvious from the start that Frank is a mess. He's caught drunk at work isn't he? I don't think you need to be older to see that.