What's the feminist take on affairs?

[Feathered]

Do you think a woman who has an affair with a married man can be a feminist?
Does it depend on circumstance?
If the woman stays with the man whilst he is living "a double life" for an extended period of time? If he has children etc?
It's a complicated question, I know. There will be lots of different scenarios.
I'd be really interested in finding out what people think.

Well, an affair really a sort of lie, isn't it. Which in itself is not a feminist issue, it's a human issue. Some people think it is ok in general to lie, and I don't suppose being a feminist or not has much to do with that.

Also people often know and believe something to be wrong, and do it anyway. That's also a human issue, and feminists are not particularly different than anyone else on this either.

There are lots of different types of ‘feminist’ and lots of differing individual opinions within each ‘type’. I don’t think there is a consensus on the subject.

Arguably, the ‘other woman’, if she knows that her affair partner is married, is betraying the sisterhood. However, she is (presumably) a single woman, free to choose her sexual partner. The man is the one who has made promises to his wife, he is the one having the affair.

Do women who have affairs with married men ever describe themselves as feminist?

I suppose it depends whether you see feminism primarily as about "sisterhood" as a PP puts it or whether you see it as a political movement.

Having an affair makes the married party a betraying shit. Arguably the unmarried party is complicit in helping the betrayal along (though I still think the bulk of the guilt lies with the person who actually made promises to be faithful).

So there's a strong case that knowingly being the OW makes you a bit of a shit.

But - would this make someone less of a socialist? Or less of a campaigner for, say, minority rights of one sort or another? Or less of a campaigner for women's rights taken as a whole as a political need?

A woman could, for instance, do vital work campaigning for equal pay (a lot of workplaces still don't have this - I speak as someone who was involved in an equal pay claim), and yet be a shit in her private life. Do feminists have to be morally perfect in all areas of their lives in order to be feminists? And if so, is this same requirement for moral perfection applied to men engaged in political activism?

So - it's about morality, not feminism? What do you think the difference is between "the sisterhood" and feminism?

I have always thought of them as the same.

It's a feminist issue because women often seem to get blamed for affairs (even if the woman is otherwise unattached) whereas the men often seem to get away with it (even if they are in a supposedly committed relationship). It's double standards.

None of us are perfect human beings or perfect feminists. Because we live in a patriarchal society, sometimes we'll make decisions that aren't particularly "feminist" ones. Sometimes we'll just make mistakes or bad decisions. So yes, feminists might have affairs. It doesn't mean they can't be "feminist" when it comes to other issues. And I don't think it's particularly "feminist" to focus on blaming the women and not the men.

If a man had an affair with a married woman, would anyone question whether he was betraying the "brotherhood"? I doubt it.

I believe that more men cheat than women do, too. Which is a result of male entitlement and privilege. The fact that men often feel entitled and can get away with spending time outside the home pursuing their own interests while the women are left looking after the home and children.

Interesting @caradune

I suppose I feel that the difference between it being about feminism (rather than another political movement) is that it is not only betraying the wife but it is also condoning the behaviour of the husband, who is putting a woman - his wife - in a vulnerable and unpleasant position. It degrades that woman. If the affair is prolonged then that degradation is extended.

Although, of course, all this is applicable to married women who have affairs, too.

Maybe "betraying shit" and "bit of a shit" are easier terms!

There are certainly feminist issues around marriage, divorce on the grounds of infidelity, remarriage, child maintenance.

So for instance, a woman who's given up her career for children gets shafted in the divorce settlement as the man swans off into the sunset with his OW then stops paying child maintenance as soon as his new woman produces children "because he can't afford both" , and the child maintenance agencies turn out to be as much use as a chocolate teapot.

There are huge feminist issues there - but to my mind they're systemic ones about marriage, financial roles within marriage, the fact that our society still sees children as a woman's responsibility and tolerates men reneging on their financial obligations to their own children.

None of these systemic issues are down to the individual OW. Though actually I think I would argue that a second wife who encourages her new husband to welch on his obligations to his first wife and children is anti-feminist, because at that point she's choosing to support a political/institutional framework which allows women to be shafted.

I love this quote (which I think is from Andrea Dworkin) which really sums up what feminism is for me:

"Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy in behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with anymore. "

So basically, I don't think your question is really anything to do with what being a feminist is - if we only "accept" perfect feminists then hardly anybody would be a feminist! You can still strive for feminist ideals while falling short of them yourself, just as there are plenty of doctors who advocate healthy lifestyles but who are actually overweight smokers themselves.

Mmmm, interesting point. You could support every demand of the women's liberation movement, and every feminist action currently being taken, including those that don't personally benefit you.

But if you mistreat other women, eg by having affairs with their husbands, how much of a feminist are you?

I suppose it comes back to our old slogan "The personal is political". I would never knowingly start a relationship with another woman's partner because it's a shit thing to do to another woman.

Ooh, I was vaguely googling around the topic of second wave feminism and infidelity - as I think the second wave feminist movement was fairly open to sexual liberation in all its forms - when I found this BBC treasure trove.

www.bbc.co.uk/archive/second-wave-feminism/zdhw382

The question is always, what is sexual liberation - what is liberation at all?

Is liberation doing whatever you feel? Or whatever your body wants, or your emotions? What if that creates other kinds of boundaries? Is it liberation to take someone else's stuff, or tell lies, or be a shit to others? What does that mean for their liberation?

It’s pretty adjacent issue and very contextual I think.

For example in some parts of the world there’s a good feminist argument that for women marriage = slavery because the woman has no choice in who she marries and cannot divorce. In those situations I feel affairs could even be considered a feminist choice. In the west often marriage is somewhere between that at completely free choice. Like there are still a lot of arranged marriages In the US and in other situations you have people staying in horrible situations because their partner controls the finances etc.

I think it’s a bit weird that OP focuses only on “the other woman” scenario as if women never have affairs with unattached men. For me the major betrayal Of an affair is the promise breaking, lying and secret keeping from the partner. So “the other” woman (or man) has very little they are doing wrong. If it weren’t for them, the person would still cheat with someone. I would wonder slightly at the choice of wanting to be with a liar, but if it’s casual I don’t see much wrong. So yeah if a woman has an affair she’s lying and breaking a promise just as if a man does it.

So “the other” woman (or man) has very little they are doing wrong. If it weren’t for them, the person would still cheat with someone.

It's a bit like buying a hot television, or black market cigarettes, I think. You are enabling someone to do something wrong, and so to some extent participating in it, and knowingly ignoring that someone is being hurt or exploited. Almost condoning it, because who has an affair with someone while telling them they are a jerk for cheating?

www.bbc.co.uk/archive/second-wave-feminism/zdhw382

Thanks, Maybe. Looks fascinating and I've bookmarked it.

Almost condoning it, because who has an affair with someone while telling them they are a jerk for cheating?

Idk I think it’s pretty common for the other person to say that they should tell their spouse they are cheating, Implying they are a jerk for lying.

The point you make about a stolen Tv is a nice analogy. I wouldn’t personally be interested In doing it. However I still think 95% of the blame goes to the thief, not the pawn shop owner or whatever. And still contextual. I wouldn’t blame anyone having an affair with someone in a forced marriage for example.

Personally, I think the answer is 'no comment'. Infidelity is a nasty thing to do to someone (female or male) but it isn't in itself a form of oppression.

I believe that more men cheat than women do, too. Which is a result of male entitlement and privilege.

I think this graph is extremely interesting when exploring that question.

I'm afraid that it is from the Institute for Family Studies, which is a think tank rather than an academic group (i.e. they have an agenda) but my subscriptions don't extend to purely psychological academic journals so I wasn't able to fully explore the peer reviewed research.

ifstudies.org/blog/who-cheats-more-the-demographics-of-cheating-in-america

Idk I think it’s pretty common for the other person to say that they should tell their spouse they are cheating, Implying they are a jerk for lying.

You could be right, maybe especially if the person would prefer them to leave their spouse.

Let's not forget that there are some men people who pretend they are single in order to cheat, so the affair partner might be entirely innocent and might in fact be a 'victim' themselves.

I think this OP is specifically referring to women who have sex with married men knowing they're married, which is a bit of a sexist stereotype used a lot in films etc.

It's shitty, but some shitty people can call themselves feminists I suppose. The feminist angle I suppose would be why do so many men cheat on their wives?

it's not top on the list of feminist issues, but I do think feminism has to be about solidarity and sisterhood, therefore to have an affair with a married man is a betrayal of another woman, with whom you have more in common than with the man
all the bullshit about the relationship being over etc etc will just be bullshit and a feminist should recognise that and not be taken in by it
we make choices in our personal lives and we should consider the wider implications of our choices, like how they will impact other people, in this case the wife and especially the children
it is very analagous to buying street drugs- you may not be personally harmed by them, and the person you buy them off may be a small independent business, but you are endorsing an international trade that is deeply harmful

Having an affair with another women's husband isn't really anything to do with feminism. It might be hurtful to that wife (who the OW may or may not know) but its not hurtful to women as a whole. Each affair has its own circumstances and culpability but its nothing to do with feminism. If anything the old misogynist trope of the OW being a wicked husband stealer tempting the poor defenceless man away is the only feminist issue here. Blame men for their bad actions and drop the double standards.

I think affairs are unfeminist in a similar way to porn- because they promote a view of women as objects for the use of men- "his bit on the side" "his piece" "his latest bit of skirt" "son cinq à sept" - as if the female affair partner is an accessory like a new set of golf clubs.

Also because the affair partner is aiding and abetting shitty behaviour taking advantage of the wife, who is part of the sex class that is typically more financially vulnerable and may have to put up with the shit.

So yeah the personal is political. Not saying that having an affair bars you from ever being able to call yourself a feminist ever again but it's like somebody banging on about being vegan in every facebook post and getting angry about factory farming but stuffing in a battery farmed chicken burger from the drive thru when nobody is watching* - hypocritical

*note I don't think many vegans actually do this! The ones I know stick to their principles I think.

Oh yes also as CayrolBaaskin says- the trope of women as wicked husband stealers/ homewreckers +/- gold diggers is damaging to women as a class too.

There isnt a feminist stance on affairs. We disagree on many things but as far as I am aware there isnt one in regards to spousal infidelity.