Bringing up boys

[Mumoblue]

NC for this because I'm not sure how it will be received, maybe I'm just overthinking. I tend to do that.

I have a young baby son, and I'm thinking a lot about how to bring him up, obviously. It hit me early on how gendered the world is over silly things. For example he was born with a lot of hair and many people are already telling me he needs a haircut 'soon' - he's not even 6 months yet!
And I saw a few threads on here about dads being uncomfortable with their boys having certain toys, which winds me up no end.

I want to raise my son to treat people fairly but I know that he's going to get certain messages from society that it's okay for him to act in some ways and not in other ways just because he is a boy. I think it's all bullshit.

So I thought I'd ask if there were other mums of sons here who have some thoughts about raising sons with a feminist perspective.

Maybe I'm way overthinking, but I would hate for my son to grow up feeling either restrained by what society expects of him or feeling like he can do bad things because men get away with those things.

I'm not overly stressed about this, as I think I will raise him to be a good person as I would if he were a girl, but it's been on my mind a bit.

Ds is my middle kid. He’s 18 and finishing a gap year that was supposed to end with a big European trip with his lad friends. He’s a giant hairy (really hairy. Omg.) basketball playing head lifeguard who is off to uni to train to be a history/ drama teacher fully wanting to have a side in youth or community theatre. He learned to walk in pink Barbie play shoes, breast fed his dollies, and pushed the dolly pushchair around the village for a solid year. He took dance classes from 18 months because his big sis took a pre-school class and we had to sit and wait for her, and he had so much fun joining in at the edge of the room that the teacher just said oh let him come and take part. (The class was 2+ but she said she wouldn’t make him wait.) He took ballet, musical theatre, hip hop and tap, and danced until he was 16 when he had to decide between a panto part and a lesson clash. He still can’t stand still if he hears music. He gave up just ballet at 8 entirely because all of the peer aged girls in his class told him that ballet was for girls and he shouldn’t be there.
That said, all three of them played with all of the toys. We had a giant dressing up box with all sorts of stuff in it, but all three loved the crappy plastic Barbie shoes, or to put on leotards and tights and tails and cat ears. They played together with the kitchen and the trains. The Thomas brio was adored and they fought over Cranky. Bob the a Builder and Thunderbirds were as well used as the kitchen.
They sort themselves out, given the chance. They work out what interests them and what sort of people they want to be. Both girls are scientists. Ds is not. He dropped science as fast as humanly possible in favour of drama, and has attended two lengthy performing arts camps during high school summers. Dd1 was a more competitive dancer, got more qualifications and actually taught dance while at school, but with ds it’s life choice lol. She did it because she loved it but knew that wasn’t her career. He performs because he can’t not.
Dh cooks. All the time. All the kids take turn to cook. The concessions we make in terms of gendered chores are essentially ‘oi giant man child, reach this/ carry this bloody heavy x’. At the mo our poor old dawg is struggling, and ds is the one carrying him up and down the stairs to his room so dawg doesn’t sleep alone. He is the one who mops up sick and looks after drunk friends, and makes sure everyone is safe.
Opportunity to explore, freedom from judgement, and all will be well.

Our son is 16 we have always let him choose his own toys although he was obsessed with cars and trains at one point, but he also had dolls, a tea set, ironing board, Hoover and push chair - things generally considered girls toys. He loved dressing up and wet had many weird and wonderful combinations including my personal favorite of a cowboy with fairy wings and tiara!

My husband and I have an equal relationship based on friendship and trust and have worked as a team with my son sharing care very equally.

At 16 My son is sensitive and kind, built like a brick shithouse and so much taller than me! He has lots of friends of both sexes, who are all treated respectfully and equally.

I read the book raising boys by Stephen bidulph and found that very helpful in guiding how to bring up boys. In addition we have never been those parents that do not allow their son to show any emotion or let them cry. If he has needed to cry we have let him and then talked about the emotions around it, sadness, disappointment, anger, happiness so that he can get a handle on how he is feeling. We have talked to him about anything and everything, but more importantly allowed him to express himself with us in a safe environment so that we can guide with what's appropriate and what's not.

I'm very proud of the young man he's becoming.

Ursula I'm genuinely confused by your comments, how can many people bringing up their boys to be kind, thoughtful well rounded young men, Mark that young man as different. If more of us did that surely it would become the norm rather than the exception.

Ursula children are sadly picked on for a great variety of reasons.

I haven't seen anyone here advocating their child should "stand out" in any way, like eg putting your child in deliberately wacky clothes to make some sort of point.

Recognising that the world around your child is extremely gendered in a way that arguably harms girls far more than boys, is not a parental failure. In fact most child's strength of character will come from an overall sense of balance wrt gendered expectations.

I know many long-haired children who are boys, I presume that's the sort of "dodgy haircut" you're referring to, none of whom are suffering from bullying.

It's also rather misogynistic to blame this person's perceived failings in life on the mother alone.

Surely you strive to bring up your child both according to their nature and also according to your values, regardless of their sex.
Obviously, overly imposing ideology of any kind, or any very certain value is not in anyone's best interests.

Watched a new series on Channel 4 the other day - a 'competitive parenting' ( a bit weird) programme - where three sets of parents outline their parenting style, and then the audience votes on it.

One of the parents, a single mother calling herself a feminist, showcased what she called 'Gender Fluid' parenting. She had a son called Willow. He had very long hair ( about 5/6 years old) and no obvious 'boy toys'. She encouraged him to paint his nails and do stereotypically 'girly' stuff. Absolutely forbid guns/swords/fighting of any kind.

When he went to the homes of the other children he did not cope well at all. Two very different families. Was clingy, overly emotional, and confused. i didn't think that forcing 'girliness' on him was doing him any favours at all.

I've got a girl and two boys ( now all adult) and they are all unique and different in temperament. I do think, though, that there are some subtle differences between girls and boys...which to my mind is inevitable.

Mum of two older teen boys here.
There's so much I could contribute here, but I don't have time right now, but the only thing I would say is watch out for the influence of the boys & sport dynamic.
We found that at primary school EVERYTHING for boys seemed to revolve around sport - mostly football - and if that wasn't your thing then you were ostracised. Unfortunately some schools (and parents) seem completely obsessed with competitive sport being the only valid exercise for boys.

Although we tried them at all the 'boys' sports (footie, cricket, rugby) my two weren't in the least bit interested, so we had to work hard to help them find other friends in clubs and hobbies like scouts and music/drama.

Obviously, overly imposing ideology of any kind, or any very certain value is not in anyone's best interests.

Yes, this is something to keep in mind. That's not to say you don't tell them what you think is true, and why, but they are autonomous people who will develop their own ideas and values, and make their own observations. Even quite young children sometimes make observations and draw conclusions quite separate from their parents, and those conclusions can be very powerful because they are things the child has arrived at themselves. Sometimes saying too much can get in the way of that, as can preventing exposure to anything that doesn't promote the views of the parents.

Charming

There is a difference between allowing your children freedom to be themselves without being restricted by gender norms and actively encouraging your boy to be "girly" (or your daughter to be "boyish"). I think it's pretty clear that everyone on this thread has been advocating the former and not the latter. Of course tv programmes will present extremes for the "entertainment" of viewers ie so they can judge and bitch about people as you have just done.

"I do think, though, that there are some subtle differences between girls and boys...which to my mind is inevitable."

Well, yes, there are often differences, and they are very difficult to avoid, because we live in a patriarchy, and we are not the only influences on our children - they're influenced by other people in their lives and by the media.

Blackdog and Yorkshire
It was lovely to read your posts about your teenage sons, your love and pride in them really shone through

There is a difference between allowing your children freedom to be themselves without being restricted by gender norms

Yes

Spot on, AnotherEmma.

When my son decided to grow his hair long (aged about 6, 7-ish) he got a lot of teasing about it initially. So we talked very openly about what his options were - cut it, or try to find strategies for dealing with the teasing. We googled footballers with long hair so he knew he wasn't alone. We talked to his teacher. His friends backed him up.

In the end the thing that made him decide to cut it was he just got fed up with adults commenting on it, not other children.

That's sad. I do think children are actually much more open minded than adults. But they also learn quickly what adults expect of them

I have 2 boys aged 10 and 14. You just treat them as individuals and respect their choices.

DS1 had very few female friends, DS2 has mostly female friends. DS1 has never been bothered about his appearance, DS2 is very keen to look a certain way and has just bought some makeup and loves dressing up.

Don't make a deal out of any of it, just allow them to be interested in what ever they are interested in. Then you will have well rounded children.

interesting point about being bullied. DS1 was bullied although he fitted right in on every level but was more sensitive to his peers approval.

DS2 is arguably far more quirky, but his personality means he doesn't give a shit and so is far more difficult to bully.

Support your child, but most importantly let them be who they are.

I’ve been on the verge of starting an almost identical thread, but for advice on raising a daughter. (I did initially think it would be ‘easier’ than raising a son, or that there would be less conflict, but now that my toddler is all about cuddling and feeding her stuffed animal ‘babies’ I’ve been panicking slightly that we are accidentally pushing these behaviours on to her). But lots of great advice on here for parents of daughters, too.

I agree, a lot of it applies to both.
Check out the website and Facebook page "A Mighty Girl", too - it's American but they have lots of great resources.

I have 2 sons, as different to each other as night and day in every way.

I think that outside of not ever telling them that 'this is for boys/this is for girls' (outside of actual biological stuff) the best thing you can do is treat them as individuals.

DS1 loved cars - mainly to run down ramps and perhaps crash. DS2 couldn't care less about cars but loves stuffed animals. DS1 is a softy who couldn't even watch Tree Fu Tom without hiding behind the settee - DS2 sternly told his father that he didn't think The Dark Crystal was appropriate because Aughra popped her eyeball out - but was otherwise unphased by it all. DS1 wears what's issued, DS2 wants to pick his outfit, and loves a bit of sparkle. Completely their own people, just like everyone else.

Of course tv programmes will present extremes for the "entertainment" of viewers ie so they can judge and bitch about people as you have just done

Being " bitchy" is not really my style..so I'm not sure why you felt the need to make this comment? Says more about your style, maybe?

Did you watch the programme I referenced? I was using it as an exemplar of imposing an ideology to the point it squashes the child's actual preferences or discovery of their own nature. the boy in question was frightened of making his own choices; indeed he seemed not to know what they might be, when confronted with situations out of his mother's control and definition.

Not everything, in my view is about 'patriarchy'. My two boys were lovely, nice natured and not at all 'difficult' as young children. Their father is a gentle man, and a life long vegetarian...and certainly not an archetypal macho man in any way. We didn't purchase computer games which featured fighting or warfare or anything like that......and I ,initially, held to the principle of not buying toy guns or action men etc

Yet still, when out walking in the woods, both the boys would pick up sticks and imitate guns or swords...and play 'stalking', army-type games etc. And when they were in their teens, one of them became very interested in the military ( & used to draw the most finely detailed images of army scenes); the other went on to join his schools army cadet force, and loved it ( mixed school...and there were girls in it too).

Neither son has grown up to be misogynistic or violent...(one is now a DJ and music producer; the other did an MA in International Relations, and is looking for work in international aid agencies or charities)..There were simply expressing themselves in ways which came naturally to them.

Can I add, my daughter, who was the eldest, did not engage in war play of a similar kind, even though she had the most wilful, powerful nature. Boys do, in general, seem more object/outward focused..girls more relational.

To rule out biology and the influence of sex hormones on behaviour, aptitude or attitude is naive, in my view. They are real and powerful, and can be seen in action throughout the natural world. And not all 'boy' qualities are negative and destructive......they just are; and they have a certain natural 'purpose'. that's not to say that as civilised human beings living in a liberal democracy we cannot choose to channel or sublimate our urges and instincts in different ways.

I might also add the older son had beautiful, long blond hair as a teenager, and everyone loved him. Especially girls.

@Justhadathought
My comment was addressed to Ursula (whose posts have now been deleted, so you might not have seen them) and not to you.

My comment was addressed to Ursula (whose posts have now been deleted, so you might not have seen them) and not to you

O.K! Thanks! No, did not see the comments.

Feel free to apologise for insulting my "style"