Am I going to lose friends over the trans/TERf etc debate?

[Maria53]

I am 28 and I feel the vast majority of my peers disagree with me.

I believe in equal rights for everyone. However I have become increasingly concerned about the threat of single sex spaces being taken away. The vast majority of my friends shrug their shoulders and say 'what's the big deal?' and I am incredulous.

One of my best friends of over a decade was banned from Twitter for using the word 'Terf' - we then got into a debate where we clearly disagreed. So I have never posted about it again since to avoid arguing with her and we have remained good friends.

Tonight another friend posted against JK Rowling and I disagreed with her because I am tired of staying silent. Well no sooner had I done this my close friend jumped in to disagree with me as well. Both said I am in the wrong.

I now feel sad because I know they are judging me but I stand by my convictions. Am I going to have to accept I may lose friends over our polarised opinions? Has anyone experienced this?

It's a shame FalseImage is buggering off; I was hoping for some clarification on whether, when talking about 'trans women', they're referring to AFAB or AMAB people.

Because, if we're talking transwomen then I know we're talking AMAB, but when that space is there I honestly don't know which sex the poster's talking about.

Btw Talkingto I'm loving supremice as a verb. Henceforth will take all opportunities to promote its use, with an eye to eventual dictionary inclusion.

OP - I’m really sorry you’re in this position. I know how painful it is. When it’s someone you really care about, it’s not that easy to just wave goodbye to the relationship. But if your friend has really signed up to this then there is a real clash.

As that now departed poster has demonstrated, you cannot use any form of rational debate with people who are determined to cling to their ideology, no matter what. People's emotional rationale for believing this stuff in the first place is far more powerful than any actual logic, so it all falls on stony ground, no matter how rooted in reality and social justice your arguments are.

Obviously no one here knows if your friendship has enough depth to come through this intact. I do hope for your sake it does, although I myself find it increasingly hard to tolerate this level of denial and misogyny in people I used to respect and care about.

I genuinely think this form of transactivism that seeks to take away women’s rights to boundaries, our voice, and our autonomy is a male supremacist movement and find it every bit as abhorrent as any other male supremacist or white supremacist movement, so it always seems doubly outrageous to me that they are the ones appropriating the moral high ground and condemning us as bigots. But that’s the upside down world we live in right now.

As others have said, there are wonderful new friendships to be formed with other women who see things the same way you do (you know who you are! ❤️❤️❤️) and I hope you can go on to do that too.

But I know that it doesn’t make losing a once close friend, if it does come to that, any less hard.

Btw Talkingto I'm loving supremice as a verb. Henceforth will take all opportunities to promote its use, with an eye to eventual dictionary inclusion.

Glad to hear it, Tyro

Partial credit to Shoeless Joe, late of this Twitter parish, for the original “misogynists gonna misodge”.

Supremice is all mine though

Good job there's no bigger issues to worry about at the moment than this nonsense.

Male supremacists gonna male supremice.

Misogynists gonna misodge.

Oh my, that's frickin' genius.

If only there was a way that people could communicate clearly and we wouldn't have to do that.

What we need is for words to have a certain meaning. We could maybe put all these words, and their meanings, into a big book so people can see what words mean and not use the wrong ones, or be forced to make up their own meanings?

Thanks @TalkingtoLangClegintheDark. I hope our friendship will be able to endure it too. However my friend moved to a secluded place a few years ago where she interacts with a group that are very pro these views which is where it all began. The main friends she spends time with are quite militant about this I think.

I am ok with having different views but I am not ok with being silenced which is what she does whenever she sees me talking about it online.

I am willing to not talk about it online but I do resent feeling silenced to preserve the friendship. Once lockdown ends I am planning to go to some meetings to try and meet similar minded women.

Interestingly - this group I am talking about has several branches throughout the country. When another friend joined one in a insane place she started expressing similar views pretty much all the time. She finally decided the group was toxic and left. Since then she has stopped expressing these views.

*joined one in a different place, not insane

The people with penises who say 'I am a woman' but then go on to commit sexual crimes are male perverts. Only the nice, non-perverted people with penises who say 'I am a woman' really are women

Pity they don't carry signs saying "I am a pervert. Don't trust me.'

@AnyOldPrion yes!

Questions are incredibly powerful in conversations. Coaching is based on questioning, not on telling clients what to do - the client's own thought process when prompted by a well thought out, worded and placed question does the work.

How you ask is important - open questions, invitations to 'tell me about ...' 'talk me through ... ' are valuable for getting them to think things through.

I was once advised to avoid 'why?' because it can make them defensive.

Polite, neutral tone of voice, expressions, body language, word choice - all helps keep you both relaxed and calm, helps avoid tension and defensive behaviour.

If anyone decides to try it out - please report back. I sense people are getting more confident as each positive thing happens - the detransitioned teen Twitter thread, the US ruling that trans girls should not be competing in girls' sports, JK Rowling in general etc!

Facebook group 'This Never Happens' shares news accounts of crimes committed by transgender men claiming to be women.

A useful source of info for conversations.

Easy to Google and click to see it.

@Pertella

If only there was a way that people could communicate clearly and we wouldn't have to do that.

What we need is for words to have a certain meaning. We could maybe put all these words, and their meanings, into a big book so people can see what words mean and not use the wrong ones, or be forced to make up their own meanings?

That's not a bad idea. I hope you will not object if I also offer you my most enthusiastic contrafribularities.

What we need is for words to have a certain meaning. We could maybe put all these words, and their meanings, into a big book so people can see what words mean and not use the wrong ones, or be forced to make up their own meanings?

I've got Dr Johnson on the line ...

That's not a bad idea. I hope you will not object if I also offer you my most enthusiastic contrafribularities.

how rude.

Cancelled!

That's not a bad idea. I hope you will not object if I also offer you my most enthusiastic contrafribularities.

Now you're just being wilfully anaspeptic DickKerrLadies

They never answer, because there is no answer that’s not nonsense

"They" never answer being yes, actually "they" (they usually being other women) but if it's not an answer you like you pretend you haven't heard until people bend to your way of thinking.
People have given up and just leave you to it.

With @FalseImage on this one.

See? Aw are you going FalseImage? But you haven't responded to my question! Don't blame for not playing, it's ridiculous.
It's all playground

I haven't lost friends (yet) but I strongly suspect a lot of them think I'm bigoted. It's very frustrating when grown women don't feel passionate enough to defend their own (and other females) rights.

There weren't any answers. There are never any answers.

When people have been annoyed by a poster to this extent, they tend to start to show it in manner and response. Is expecting absolute perfect politeness at all times despite all provocation to be taken seriously a reasonable or rational expectation?

Certainly it's one female humans frequently encounter as a form of discriminatory thinking that privileges males.

Put more simply: if you come here and behave like a twit with no argument or reason but repeating silly mantras, really you should expect to not be taken that seriously.

Just to clarify my "not playing that game" comment. My definition of "a woman" is irrelevant as we already know that transgender women with a GRC have the same rights as non transgender women when it comes to service provision. Those without a GRC are protected from discrimination/harassment under the gender reassignment characteristic via the EA, and yes there are exceptions. That's the law ladies and gentlemen. Go ask a Barrister if you don't believe me.

My definition of "a woman" is irrelevant as we already know that transgender women with a GRC have the same rights as non transgender women when it comes to service provision.

Not quite.

Example: A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7/5/3

The comparator for those without a GRC are other men.

Those with a GRC can also be excluded under certain conditions. And there have only been approx 5000 of those issued in any case, including to women who identify as men.

You seem to be making the usual sexist assumption that the women here aren't barristers, lawyers, geneticists, endocrinologists or doctors.

Nobody here accepts Stonewall law.

Falseimage, why are you so obsessed by trans people.

Its beginning to sound like either a phobia or fetish.

Feminist board, feminist issues.

Falseimage, why are you so obsessed by trans people

That has got to be one of the most bizarre comments I've read on these threads, was it meant to be as funny as it comes across?! Seeing as trans people are being discussed on this thread, someone posts an alternative view and gets "OMG you're obsessed with trans people?" Erm... what lol

but if it's not an answer you like you pretend you haven't heard until people bend to your way of thinking
People have given up and just leave you to it
That's not overly helpful is it. Any answer I've ever seen relies heavily on stereotypes. If that's the actual answer then I truly am gender free because I dont conform to any stereotypes of woman.

Do you have a better answer, after all this is a discussion board, let's discuss your idea of what woman is.