Central Park Incident

[Coyoacan]

I saw the video when it first came out and saw a woman who play-acted on the phone to the police while torturing her dog for sound effects and using the colour of the man's skin in the hope that he would be shot on sight by the police.

It turns out that, as a feminist, I should have seen a poor woman, scared of a man in an isolated area, making a call for help and giving a limited physical description of the man.

In one discussion, where I suggested solidarity with the mothers of teenage black boys who never know if their sons would come home again when they left the house, that that is not a feminist issue.

Does feminism trump the fight against racism?

Although im not sure how this has become a stick to beat feminism with 🤷‍♀️

DidoLamentingThen why even mention it? It's clearly being used to defend the racist lady and her actions

No it is not. No one has defended what she said in her threat. It has been raised because his actions may well have been intimidating but her reaction by threatening to say she was reporting an African American man were wholly wrong.

Although im not sure how this has become a stick to beat feminism with

I started this thread because two different feminists in two different places claimed that being a feminist meant that we should support this woman, putting the best connotation on her actions while putting the worst connotations on the man's actions.

I frankly wanted some reassurance that being a good feminist does not mean that we have to support a racist shite.

I was also talk by one of those ladies that the fear that the mother of black teenager boys feels every time her sons leave the house is not a feminist concern.

You can't be this thick. She was too busy shouting at Mr Cooper to realise she was choking the thing half to death. Why are you making excuses for HER, yet have NO understanding for the victim?

The woman was distressed and distracted whilst holding back her dog. It doesn't mean she doesn't care for the dog. It means she made a mistake. It also doesn't mean what she went on to do was right. Obviously it wasn't. Where exactly did I say I didn't have understanding for the victim? Oh right, I didn't, you made that up based on no evidence, because it suits your narrative.
BTW when you start ranting and calling people names, because they don't fall in line with what you think doesn't make you look particularly clever either.

Feminism definitely doesn't mean defending a racist just because they happen to be female, or looking for reasons to blame a victim just because they're male, so I agree with you there OP. But I don't really see why mothers fearing for their sons is a feminist issue? Surely something is a feminist issue if it only or disproportionately affects women? Since I assume that the fathers of these sons also fear equally for them, I dont really see why it's a feminist issue. Surely it's "parents of black sons fear for their safety" rather than "mothers of black sons fear for their safety". Terrible for sure, and something we should all work to eliminate in the fight against racism, but since it doesn't just or mostly affect women, and doesn't relate to the liberation of women, I'm not sure it's to do with feminism.

I frankly wanted some reassurance that being a good feminist does not mean that we have to support a racist shite.

Hopefully, you are reassured.

I was also talk by one of those ladies that the fear that the mother of black teenager boys feels every time her sons leave the house is not a feminist concern.

That depends on whether you think that the impact of male violence on men is a feminist concern. I'm not touching that row with a barge pole.

It's a feminist issue that Black women's experience of racism, as curated by news outlets, is as the grieving widow and worried mother of the male victim of violence. Rare is the mention of racial (and often also sexual) violence that Black women experience in their own right.

The woman was distressed and distracted whilst holding back her dog

Distressed at the sight of a black man? He spoke calmly to her. She lurched towards him in a pandemic, that's how scared she was. Started crying hysterically as soon as the police were on the phone. Had the foresight to tell him

'I'm going to tell Them an African American man is threatening my life', knowing what that means.

Why is he "creepy" and she the victim who deserves the benefit of the doubt? Anyone making excuses is sick - you don't care because your white and know this will never affect you.

Distressed at the sight of a black man?

Give over. Distressed because of the situation. What the heck is wrong with you.

Anyone making excuses is sick - you don't care because your white and know this will never affect you

You can see me in your head now and you know I am white? Seriously?

Seems to me you don't know much at all. Great at trying to read what's not there though aren't you.

coyoacan I wasnt meaning you or your reasons for starting this thread.

I don't really see why mothers fearing for their sons is a feminist issue? Surely something is a feminist issue if it only or disproportionately affects women? Since I assume that the fathers of these sons also fear equally for them, I dont really see why it's a feminist issue. Surely it's "parents of black sons fear for their safety"

Thank you. That's very clear and you've convinced me.

civil debate please.

The woman has been charged with filing a false report.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/06/amy-cooper-charged-black-birdwatcher-new-york?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

So she should be. She did.

Here's an article which argues (persuasively in my opinion) why she should not have been charged.
newdiscourses.com/2020/07/mob-social-justice-dangerous-precedent-charging-amy-cooper/

Interesting article. I had read another one that analysed situations which gained widespread attention through a video that went viral. That article provided the missing context before and after the video, which changed how each situation could be interpreted.

The link you posted is interesting precisely because a number of unknowns in this case have been reduced to only one interpretation - racist calls police on black man to do him harm.

The comments are interesting, too. The woman cannot possibly have been scared because she didn't behave like the commenter thinks scared women should behave. And so on.

Although the public court has long since judged her guilty and punished her accordingly, we might never find out how a law court might judge her actions. While she has now been charged with making a false report, it's quite likely she might plead out, which is extremely common in the US, so we might see a fine for breaking the dog-leashing rules and nothing more.

Here's an article which argues (persuasively in my opinion) why she should not have been charged.

newdiscourses.com/2020/07/mob-social-justice-dangerous-precedent-charging-amy-cooper/

I don't have time to respond to the article fully right now and I am not sure when I will have time

I think that things are always more complicated and nuanced than they appear and when I first saw the video of the event it did seem to me that the female was racist and I still believe she was racist.

However I think there is another layer of interaction that the article doesn't mention that seemed very obvious to me, although obviously I may be projecting my own experiences onto the situation (something I think we all do).

When I saw the video I strongly identified with Chris Cooper, not becauce of ethnicity or skin colour - he is African American, I am white British, or because of sex, he is a man I am a woman, there are also countless other differences between us.

He is a birder. His heart soars when he identifies a particular bird, but it's song or by its visual appearance, at which point he records the bird.

I share his enthusiasm for nature and also his enjoyment of identifying a particular thing and recording it. Actually the video below does not show Cooper documenting his birding but I would put money on him possessing books or lists or some record of his sights and sounds for the day.

I am often found in nature and I also record my various discoveries. I have been moved to tears by the beauty of birdsong and I feel that in this respect I am in Cooper's "tribe".

Obviously we all exist in various tribes and there are many ways in which I am not in Chris Cooper's other "tribes".

I also notice that Mr Cooper feels a significant sense of grievance when irresponsible dog owners break the rules and cause a disturbance to wildlife. In fact Mr Cooper and his birder friends have long been engaged in a battle of sorts with irresponsible dog owners. This long and ongoing battle has resulted in many confrontations over the years as evidenced in this video that I would recommend readers to watch

This is where I really identify with Mr Cooper.

I get into arguments with dog owners on an almost daily basis. Dog owners not cleaning up their dog shit, dog owners not sticking to the clearly identified rules (can't say much or it would be outing) and dog owners claiming that "nobody else ever complains! It's only you!" as evidenced in the video.

In fact the reason why nobody else ever complains is because they are scared and don't want confrontation.

Chris Cooper and me and people who have a similar love for nature, collecting data and protecting the vulnerable (whether it is people of birds or kids from dog mess) will get stuck in and make a fuss.

I bet lots of dog walkers hate Chris Cooper and they hate me too.

I actually love dogs and am friends with some dogs and dog owners I just hate the irresponsible, selfish ones.

So basically I do think there was a significant racist element in Ms Cooper's behaviour but I also think that there was another layer of meaning in which a person who loves nature and is sensitive to the visual, auditory and olfactory elemets of nature got into conflict with an entitled, narcissistic dog owner whose fragile ego could not cope with another person (especially and African American male) telling her what to do.

In my experience of entitled, irresponsible dog owners they tend to feel persecuted and outraged by having to keep their dogs on a lead, picking up its shit and not letting it chase or kill wildlife.

Just thinking aloud

Also I would love to see Chris Cooper presenting a wildlife programme on birding. His evident pleasure in and knowledge of birds would make for wonderful television.

Not a birder but my father loves birds, so I have learned loads about the issue with dogs (and cats) from him. And have at least partially adopted his attitude.

And this is where my thinking went as well, especially since the police reportedly attended and then dismissed the incident as a minor altercation between two private citizens. This type of incident is not uncommon after all.

What is undoubtedly true is that Amy behaved like an entitled arse by disregarding a rule designed to ensure that everyone can enjoy the park.

That's just not how it works. We cannot break the rules in a public space just because they are inconvenient to us.

What is also true is that Chris attempted to scare Amy into compliance by threatening her with doing something she wouldn't like. She had no way of knowing what that might be, although from the way Chris tells it, it seems likely that he was simply going to leash her dog/force her into leashing her dog by keeping a hold of it until she did.

This is also not how it works. Much as it is infuriating when others break the rules, as private citizens we have no authority over rule breakers that allows us to force them into compliance.

Amy broke a rule. Chris escalated the situation by trying to force compliance. She escalated further by calling the police.

That's the point where I'm also wondering whether the overriding hostility is not between a white and a black person but between a dog owner and a birder.

It certainly seemed as if Amy wasn't the first rule-breaking dog owner Chris had encountered there.

Although we can only speculate about Amy's beliefs when it comes to race, on reflection I do think there's a racist element to her behaviour.

Whether that's her feeling scared of a black man because she believes his skin colour makes him more likely to be violent or whether that's because she will not be told what to do by a black person, whether she wanted to scare him back by threatening him with a law enforcement that is frequently worse for black people or whether she simply thought the police would take her side against him on the basis of their skin colour, we have no way of knowing right now. We also cannot say that racist beliefs, whether conscious or not, wasn't what motivated her to repeatedly stress him being African American to the police.

But I do agree that the immediate animosity seems to me motivated at least in part by the bird watcher vs dog walker conflict.

Much as it is infuriating when others break the rules, as private citizens we have no authority over rule breakers that allows us to force them into compliance.

She may very well have been scared but what he actually did was to film her and to offer her dog a treat.

From what we hve seen he didn't attempt to touch her or force her to do anything. She may have experienced his rebuke and filming of her as violent (in an extremely subjective and batshit way) but at no point did he explicitly threaten her with violence.

He appeared very calm and reasonable in his manner and only threatened to do something she might not like - which was not the best choice of words granted - but given his calm demeanour and his filming her at a distance I think that he definitely has the high ground.

Even given the nunce, the multiple layers of subjective perception and the ongoing birders v dog walkers war she was most definitely extremely racist and in the wrong from where I'm standing.

nunce should read nuance doh!

Although we can only speculate about Amy's beliefs when it comes to race, on reflection I do think there's a racist element to her behaviour.

I think we do have evidence of Amy's beliefs in this respect.

She was caught out on film calling the cops and falsely accusing Chris of basically being a "dangerous black man".

She may have subjectively experienced Chris filming her as violating, but then some trans identified people experience not validating their chosen identity as violent.

However, to any reasonable person, there is a gulf between actual violence and imaginary violence. Chris was not, as far as I can see, voilent at any point, whereas Amy put Chris at risk of death by cop. Which is violence of the real, as opposed to the imaginary, kind.

He asked her to put her dog on a lead, in an area where dogs have to be on leads. She was in the wrong.

You can’t decide whether someone is right and that you’ll support them based on their gender or race. You base it on their actions.

Why would you say feminists have to support other women regardless of what they have done? Women can be assholes or liars or criminals, just like anyone of any gender or race might be.

Brave man asking a dog owner to put their dog on a lease...