Woman just expect more than men and treat them like naughty boys regarding housework...

[MrsPeacockInTheLibrary]

This is a post in a Facebook group I am part of. This particular poster posts long comments like this every so often. I know it's only the internet, and I could ignore it. But there are lazy ideas and stereotypes I see everywhere. What do you all think?

"Ok I’m going to do it again – the conversation about how much housework/childcare women are doing relative to men at the end of the Today programme today. Obviously women are doing more. That begs the question though about how much housework/childcare actually needs doing?
The assumption seems to be that the women’s assessment of what needs doing is objectively correct and if it’s left to the man the place will be an absolute pigsty, but in fact how much needs doing around the house, above a certain minimal baseline (that the house is not unsanitary and you can usually find things), is entirely subjective.
Generally in my experience women seem to think that more needs doing than men do, but that doesn’t mean one is wrong and one is right - it means they have different standards. What matters more is that couples have similar standards, not that one submits to the other’s “correct” standard. (One of the happiest couples I ever knew lived in a total tip, but they really loved each other). Perhaps this is why same-sex couples are generally happier in this respect.
Nevertheless in most relationships I’ve known, it has been the woman who has believed that she is entitled to have things done to her standards and has been prepared to make the man quite miserable when he’s not done as he’s told. In some cases he’s been reduced to the status of naughty little boy around the house – basically just one of the kids – which is no good for anyone.
Who’s to blame for that? I don’t know – six of one and half a dozen of the other probably. I’ve known women who were utter slobs when they were single become martinets in a couple – and vice-versa, but traditional gender roles tend to make the outcome fairly predictable. There are slobs and control-freaks among men and women, but the answer is not for one to impose their will on the other but for them both to go find someone they are compatible with."

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000jf6p

How does anyone end up in a house that they share with another adult and do so much more than the other? It's not overnight, is it?

If you live in a household where you pick up after adults, do all the cooking, cleaning and childcare then you are, at least, partly to blame.

For me it just wasn't obvious before having dd. Childcare he had always talked as if he'd take equal responsibility. The reality turned out to be very different. I guess with cleaning/tidying, I must have been doing the majority all the time and just not noticed. I probably should have but genuinely didn't. Especially in the early months after she was born I was very sleep deprived, had a fairly long recovery from childbirth due to complications, and I couldn't not notice. And as she's got older and generates mess of her own, it becomes more obvious because the work load has gone up and you can't not see that one person doesn't pull their weight.

So feminists are misandrist when we mention this disparity and the mental load, etc. and this clown is answering that by saying the men are actually really filthy, disorganized and lazy and women should just join them in unsanitary squalor?

And feminists are the misandrists?

To be honest it’s the broader ‘wifework’ that can be exhausting. So looking at who books the holidays, Keris the family calendar un order (including the arrangements to get everyone everywhere), meal plans, sorts the shopping, sorts the kids clothes out, buys the gifts, plans Christmas/religious celebrations events, does the clear outs. That’s got to be shared as well. Then on top of that there can be a greater expectation for women to do the ‘emotional labour’ so to hold the emotional stability of the family and make sure everyone feels ok and cared about. Got to share that one too.

It’s not just running the hoover round.

I think a lot of that wifework stuff is where you get serious differences between the sexes in terms of what is important. Kids activities, Christmas looking a certain way - these tend not to be things men are so focused on. At least, I have yet to see a men's magazine with articles about Christmas cookie exchanges or how to make cards by hand or the best way to pick out the perfect gift for everyone.

I tend to think it's cultural to some extent, and women sometimes have a vision of what it's supposed to be like. Kind of like women who read bridal magazines and have a clear vision of a dream wedding (which sometimes is completely unrealistic.) So they may also have a vision of a perfect home, a perfect family life, a perfect dinner party, etc. There are whole tv channels about this stuff and its mostly women who watch.

It always reminds me about the year my youngest was born and I asked my husband to do all the Christmas shopping for his side of the family and the kids. He fine for the kids, and well for his brother and dad in fact he now does them all the time. But he bought his mother a giant chocolate bar, bigger than her head. Admittedly she is not the easiest person to buy for, but she looked very perplexed when she opened it.

Kid's activities - let's just take that one as an example.

Because I fucking hated (in no particular order) soft play, pushing swings ad nauseam, imaginary play ("you be the monster mummy, no not that way, this way...") baking stuff with toddlers (oh god, the washing up)*. A lot of it is desperately, desperately boring. I did it all, and I smiled through it - because my kid needed me to. Not because it was women's work. Not because it came naturally to me. Not because I noticed it. But because my kid needed that input and attention.

A bloke who can't be arsed to "fake it till he makes it" on the parenting front with all the boring shit work, and cherry picks the good bits, isn't "not noticing", he simply doesn't give enough of a shit about his own kids to parent properly.

(*Your own personal list may vary - I liked football, brio and lego, and cardboard engineering. Could happily do those for hours.)

A bloke who can't be arsed to "fake it till he makes it" on the parenting front with all the boring shit work, and cherry picks the good bits, isn't "not noticing", he simply doesn't give enough of a shit about his own kids to parent properly.

Are you thinking of some particular man, or men in general? Lots of dads spend time with their kids. Modern parenting that puts a lot of emphasis on parents doing kids activities is not what I'd call a universal though.

Many men constantly criticize women for failing to meet cleanliness standards, even though the men do not do any housework beyond outdoor cooking in the summer.
So I do not think women have higher cleanliness standards than men. It is a question of being willing to do the work. How much work each is willing to do is very different from how much work they want the other person to do.

Class analysis, Goose. In my observations of friends and family, backed up statistics (e.g. most recently, how many women are taking a hit on their ability to work from home in order to support their children's education, versus how many men are doing the same thing), a higher percentage of women are involved in hands-on parenting than men. Of course some men are great and some women are crap. But we're really talking population averages here.

There is a difference between class analysis and a generalisation about motives.

In any case neither are all that useful for understanding something like how these kinds of disagreements and tensions actually arise in relationships.

Should a fully grown adult be capable of tidying up/cleaning after himself? Hell yes.

Would a fully grown adult get away with strategic incompetence/only doing a half-arsed job in his paid employment? Hell no

But many disagreements aren't about living in sanitary or unsanitary conditions are they?

A man might be very capable of keeping a clean home but just doesn't see the need to clean the windows weekly or have an array of cushions on the bed ( just two arguments I've heard from friends).

One person's clutter is another person's cosy isn't it? I get the point in the op - people have different standards. Assuming there's basic cleanliness being done, if one partner wants a significantly higher standard to be met should they try to make the other partner comply?

I think you'll find if you read the rest of the thread carefully, Hooves, that all of the points you make have already been covered (some of them by me).

I am always fascinated by cleaning threads on MN because people seem to be doing a lot more cleaning than me generally. Especially anything to do with laundry. Those threads get crazy.

God yes. Those threads regularly make me feel fucing disgusting tbh! I remember outing my vile self on one years back..as someone who only changed sheets once a week. I am sleeping in loads of piss, poo, puke etc apparently. I would honestly suggest that those whos sheets get THAT dirty..are doing something differently to what I do in bed!

Also massively gross, is me only washing kids hair twice a week. And (arguably maybe actually gross) how I once went over a week in the same bra!

I am 'lucky' in that DH is a neat freak, and does near all the housework. Its actually got to the point where he told me to stop doing it, as he likes it done a certain way and apparently my way is not good enough so he only has t do it again so its pointless me doing it to start with. Which I am fine with, as I bloody hate it. Well matched it seems!

@CaraDune

I think you'll find if you read the rest of the thread carefully, Hooves, that all of the points you make have already been covered (some of them by me).

And? Quite a few people have made similar points, have you told them that they can't say it?

It’s socialisation. It’s giving little girls dusters and pretend hoovers and letting them help mummy or nanny with the housework, and praising them for it. Not doing it with boys, because boys don’t enjoy that sort of stuff, they need to be out burning energy...

Most men i know are more than happy to do housework, but want a list of instructions. They don’t seem to understand housework is a constant, ongoing thing, not a 10 min job and done for the day.

I know anecdote isn’t data but I have known 3 men in my life who housekeep “properly”. Always picking up things as they see them, cleaning and washing when it needs doing, not waiting for instructions from a woman.

All 3 of those men sadly lost their mums at a young age, so got used to making these decisions by themselves.

Again an interesting observation, the partner of one of these men is my close friend. When she was pregnant i was telling her how getting a cleaner saved my sanity- her reply? Well i won’t need one, this house keeps itself pretty clean...

Not different standards, She simply hadn’t noticed how much her husband did. Throwing a load in the washer before bed, running the vacuum for 10 mins before they sat down for tea, loading the dishwasher as cups were left next to it, wiping the surfaces before cooking, stopping at the shop on the way home from work....all little insignificant things individually but make a huge difference..

It's absolutely the shame/judging thing that women still seem to suffer from more.

It's weird: I'm imagining a couple called Peter and Jane let's say. If someone said "Jane gets a cleaner in" I'd think nothing of it, just that Jane is busy/tired/hates cleaning, whatever. But if someone said, "Peter gets a cleaner in" I'm imagining within that sentence something of Jane's commitment to cleaning and a potential judgement of Jane by the speaker or Peter, whereas I didn't even think about Peter in the first example. Gah. Is that the conditioning? Like picturing a male when you see the word surgeon even though you correct yourself afterwards?

Not shame. I’m a lazy bitch.

I dunno perhaps my vagina forgot that it’s supposed to do housework 🤷🏽‍♀️

It always reminds me about the year my youngest was born and I asked my husband to do all the Christmas shopping for his side of the family and the kids. He fine for the kids, and well for his brother and dad in fact he now does them all the time

I really don’t understand this. Presumably he bought Christmas presents for his family before he met you? Why on earth would you take on the responsibility for buying presents for his family? If my husband wants to give Christmas or birthday presents to his family that is entirely up to him.

I really don’t understand this. Presumably he bought Christmas presents for his family before he met you? Why on earth would you take on the responsibility for buying presents for his family? If my husband wants to give Christmas or birthday presents to his family that is entirely up to him.

I generally quite like Christmas shopping, and he doesn't, and has less time, so I took it over to a large degree. I was a little overwhelmed that year with the new baby so I asked him to do more than usual.

I suspect his gifts to his mother before we married were always a little hit and miss.

I'm hope that meets your approval.

I see so many posts on here complaining about wife work- yet women seem so happy to take it on.