Woman just expect more than men and treat them like naughty boys regarding housework...

[MrsPeacockInTheLibrary]

This is a post in a Facebook group I am part of. This particular poster posts long comments like this every so often. I know it's only the internet, and I could ignore it. But there are lazy ideas and stereotypes I see everywhere. What do you all think?

"Ok I’m going to do it again – the conversation about how much housework/childcare women are doing relative to men at the end of the Today programme today. Obviously women are doing more. That begs the question though about how much housework/childcare actually needs doing?
The assumption seems to be that the women’s assessment of what needs doing is objectively correct and if it’s left to the man the place will be an absolute pigsty, but in fact how much needs doing around the house, above a certain minimal baseline (that the house is not unsanitary and you can usually find things), is entirely subjective.
Generally in my experience women seem to think that more needs doing than men do, but that doesn’t mean one is wrong and one is right - it means they have different standards. What matters more is that couples have similar standards, not that one submits to the other’s “correct” standard. (One of the happiest couples I ever knew lived in a total tip, but they really loved each other). Perhaps this is why same-sex couples are generally happier in this respect.
Nevertheless in most relationships I’ve known, it has been the woman who has believed that she is entitled to have things done to her standards and has been prepared to make the man quite miserable when he’s not done as he’s told. In some cases he’s been reduced to the status of naughty little boy around the house – basically just one of the kids – which is no good for anyone.
Who’s to blame for that? I don’t know – six of one and half a dozen of the other probably. I’ve known women who were utter slobs when they were single become martinets in a couple – and vice-versa, but traditional gender roles tend to make the outcome fairly predictable. There are slobs and control-freaks among men and women, but the answer is not for one to impose their will on the other but for them both to go find someone they are compatible with."

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000jf6p

Sounds like the old "men just don't see dirt" argument.

In other words, women are thick and choose their own subordination.

Victim blaming bullshit.

I've often wondered if this is true statistically, if women are more likely to be tidy, or maybe tidy about certain types of things, than men. Many people clearly think so, but I have never been sure one way or the other.

But in any case - housework negotiations and practices are typically quite complicated in relationships, they involve a lot of feelings that go quite deep about how a home should look, what is important, etc, that people have very often not articulated clearly even to themselves. Members of a couple may come from very different backgrounds and expectations. Patterns can also be set early in a relationship without anyone thinking much about it, and there can also sometimes be control issues involved. When it isn't working there is sometimes an assumption that it is simply someone not pulling their weight, but often it's more complex than that and requires good communication to make things work better.

I also think that in a lot of families now, they are over-extended between work, housework, and childcare. Housework, house management, and childcare are actually jobs that take time ad we tend to try and squeeze them into the gaps around work. Some of the stresses around them relate to this.

Two simple issues really.

Should a fully grown adult be capable of tidying up/cleaning after himself? Hell yes.

Would a fully grown adult get away with strategic incompetence/only doing a half-arsed job in his paid employment? Hell no.

Apply both the above to the issue of housework in heterosexual couples. Any man who "can't see dirt" (or longer-winded variations on that theme) is playing the woman in his life for a fool.

Of course, what one does about it is very much harder. Men have (thanks, female socialisation/wider cultural expectations) a built in defence mechanism - demanding to be micro-managed, accusations of nagging, etc. It's nigh-on impossible to "train" a man-child (nor should it be necessary to do so in an equitable world, which, sadly, this one isn't). I suspect the only viable solution to a man-child is divorce, but again, this isn't an easy option either, because often it leaves the woman in poverty.

I do think that the “wife”’s socialisation is a part of this syndrome. My mum would tell stories about how 40 years earlier dad had dressed us kids in outfits that weren’t colour matched, it mattered to her, she was still telling the stories decades later about how silly the man she was still married to had been. He isn’t colour blind but it didn’t matter to him (nor is kids, then or now). I think here my mum was asserting her status within a wonky framework.

Women are judged and shamed if the house isn't clean or the kids are dirty. This is a social pressure placed on us.

Yes to the socialisation and expectations of women. If a woman can't or won't keep a house tidy then she's seen as lacking a 'wife skill'. Men don't get the same disdain.

It can be mismatched priorities though too. I live alone, and don't mind living with the washing up in the sink for a day. I've also lived with a man who was (in my view) obsessed with cleaning, and enjoyed doing it (and having it done "his way") although I would pitch in obviously.

It all comes down to the individual. Some men can live around some level of mess, others avoid it knowing a woman will clean up after him if he ignores it. They're very different things. Similarly some women, for whatever reason, think the house should be ship-shape at all times and bust a gut doing it then resent their husbands for not having the same view, and there are those too that like it done "their way" or to "their standard" and then martyr themselves because they end up doing it all. This then makes the other person not want to bother as it gets redone anyway.

Apply both the above to the issue of housework in heterosexual couples. Any man who "can't see dirt" (or longer-winded variations on that theme) is playing the woman in his life for a fool.

Doesn't this suggest there is some objective level of tidiness that is correct which everyone just accepts? That seems to be clearly false, different people have very different ideas about this.

I get what you're saying, One - there is indeed a tendency, when you're powerless, to latch onto really trivial things to give yourself the illusion of having control over a tiny part of your life to stop a psychological meltdown.

But isn't the problem not so much "matching outfits - what a silly thing to want", but that examples like this serve as part of the cultural context which enables men to dump the shit work on women?

I presume OP isn't talking about "OMG, their outfits didn't match" but about, say, doing the dishes but leaving all the cutlery in a washing up bowl full of dirty water, or "tidying up" after dinner by piling the plates in the sink but not actually putting them in the dishwasher or wiping down the surfaces. The whole rhetoric of "well, women want things done just so - cushions plumped, magazines straightened, children in matching outfits - and it just doesn't matter that much to men (for men within this world-view read implicit sane human beings with more important things on their manly minds )" is a rhetoric designed to excuse men not meeting minimal standards of cleanliness.

FWIW I am the less tidy one in my marriage and my husband took years to accept that some things he cared about I don't notice. On the other hand certain things I feel ought to be done a certain way, my husband would have the whole house outfitted with industrial shelving and picture of hunting dogs if it was left up to him. Largely we meet in the middle.

I agree with pp that it's about shaming. Plenty of women who don't feel the shame, or weren't brought up to the shame (often posh women whose families had staff) live quite happily in muck.

I was brought up by my mum to see dirt and feel shame about it. Even though I'm pretty much a slattern, I know the jobs that haven't been done and know that people like my mum would judge me on the state of my house if they visited. Ergo, I don't have visitors without a huge amount of effort on my part trying to get the place up to what I was taught was the minimum acceptable level.

I wish I cared less (or did more). I wish I could hire someone to do it for me - I don't seem to be able to instill the need (or SHAME!) in other members of my household.

I think most probably I would disagree with this man overall - but I do understand part of his argument. I lived with a man who was much more fastidious than me and I found his standards really hard to maintain - and also I didn’t care! I can live with a carpet that needs hoovering.

I am always fascinated by cleaning threads on MN because people seem to be doing a lot more cleaning than me generally. Especially anything to do with laundry. Those threads get crazy.

On the up side, my mum didn't instill in me the SHAME of having a less than pristine doorstep. My grandmother got that one but doesn't seem to have passed it on.

There are “news” articles and a horrible twitter account called “mumsnet madness”, many places that women’s thoughts are misquoted and belittled. I posted on a thread that was mocked in “Vice”. The op seemed lovely and was used to making bread regularly, as a stress reliever and a source of pride and a way to show love for her family. During lockdown, families like mine are buying more flour than normal. She is less able to buy flour as a result. I believe that Ops feelings matter. I hope she never sees that vice article. Ghastly site.

I think I learnt to reject the shame and it does make life easier, however I understand that a lot of people will have more pressure than me. My house is fine. By apparent MN standards I live in muck but irl people don’t mind. Also I only really let people round if I like them - so a couple of years ago I had a pretty bad flea problem (Yet to discover indorex via MN so that’s something I’ll always be grateful for) and had to say to a friend, yes do come round but FYI you will get bitten by fleas I’m sorry they are all over the place atm. And she just said - yeah that’s fine we get them in my house too. Now that’s a friend.

I think there are some objective standards of cleanliness (and I say this as a slob myself). Making sure food is not actually decomposing in the fridge, washing the shit off the loo so you don't get D&V bugs, not leaving dishes in the sink till the manky water begins to stink, leaving the dust to accumulate till your child has an asthma attack (all of which I know I could be capable of if I didn't say to myself "hang on a moment, that's both rank and dangerous") are not up for grabs, I don't think.

So yes, different standards (how much clutter each individual can tolerate before they begin to feel stress at how chaotic the house is) are a genuine problem in a shared house, one which has no "correct answer" but can be solved by negotiation (one hopes). But manky shit - not so much.

I liked the woman I came across on here who eventually sat her husband down and said "every time you leave a cup half-full of coffee on the counter without emptying it and putting it in the dishwasher, I want you to say out loud 'fuck DW, she can do it later, it's what I think she's there for.'" He did actually get the message. Because failing to clean up after yourself in the knowledge that someone else will do it is an act of disrespect - it shows that at some level you are happy to think of them as your domestic skivvy.

And there is undoubtedly a cultural expectation that preventing manky shit is women's work, and women are the ones that get judged when it doesn't get done (not withstanding the odd male exception - yes, I too know men who are tidier than their wives, no that doesn't change the fact that overall, as an observation about the general balance of shit work in the majority of households, and the expectations and level of blame that attaches to the shit work not getting done, this is a women's issue).

It is absolutely about shame and guilt. Women are judged for the cleanliness of their homes, whereas men are expected to be filthy. It was only very recently that those awful cleaning product adverts with the USP that even a dimwit man could clean the house with them were banned.

What’s even more alarming recently is the encouragement that women should see cleaning as relaxing and therapeutic, as if it’s their hobby. The whole Mrs Hinch thing is quite disturbing in this respect.

Yeap, some women do contribute to this problem. An old boyfriend of mine who is the most egalitarian man I've even known, married a lovely intelligent woman with a job, who got upset because he ironed his own shirts, as she felt that was her job. Fortunately my ex stood his ground and she got over that nonsense.

My grandmother apparently did the same to my grandfather and he said fine and never lifted a finger in the house afterwards.

I, being basically selfish and a slob, would have been the most macho man around if I'd been born male.

How does anyone end up in a house that they share with another adult and do so much more than the other? It's not overnight, is it?

If you live in a household where you pick up after adults, do all the cooking, cleaning and childcare then you are, at least, partly to blame.

PinkBrained, so that's more shame.

Shame that your house isn't up to scratch. Shame that you haven't brought up your children well enough to help out properly and trained up your adult partner to pull their weight (although it was presumably to the shame of his mother that he's like that in the first place - shame! shame!)

Actually, I'm doing quite well on the second front and using lockdown to train up ds1 on dishes and washing with the intention to add tasks as we go until we have a clean house and I don't have to lift a finger.

Dh is very poor at housework although he does quite a bit but he also does 90% of the cooking and virtually all the childcare.

I think it often happens during/after maternity leave.

Picking up the odd thing after DP isn't a huge stress and often women just do it while in the haze of first love on moving in together. A kind of "well 2 mugs in the dishwasher isn't much harder than one" thing (with a side order of "bless him, he doesn't see dirt" thanks to our old friend female socialisation).

But then children come along, you're the one at home with them full time, the tasks shift to your detriment, plus the overall workload increases exponentially (sea of plastic shite, endless laundry, smelly nappy bins, washing the kitchen floor under the toddler's high chair every single meal, etc. etc.) and somehow the new, higher workload never gets balanced out properly even after you've gone back to work. And now you're raging "goddamit, why doesn't he see the dirt?" but the imbalance feels like it's set in stone.

And if you try to tackle the imbalance, the whole gamut of "but you just have insanely high standards", "I'd do it if you didn't try to micro-manage me" (for "micro mange" read "expect you to wash the cutlery as well as the plates"), and the coup de grace "stop nagging."

It's boiled frog syndrome again. I think women don't notice it creeping up on them till it's too late.

It's one reason why I like being a single parent. It may all fall to me (barring the age appropriate chores I expect from DC) but at least I don't have the raging sense of injustice some of my friends live with.

I agree with OP. I am the messier person and DH does most of the house admin. I do more of the kids stuff though including night wakings. It’s a team thing - I agree you have to negotiate and compromise.

The neatest couples I've ever known, it's been lead by the man.

If I took the lead of my DP, the sides would never be cleaned, and we'd be up to our armpits in dirty cups/empty bottles in the living room.

I have very low standards. I haven't hoovered in 3 weeks, and I'm looking around thinking it needs doing, but am living with it rather than getting round to doing it.

It's not that DP can't see the dirt, it's that he's assigned this stuff in his mind as Somebody Else's Problem (all credit to Douglas Adams) so he refuses to acknowledge it. This is the big problem I see most - that so many men are willing to let someone else do it all for them, whereas many women would feel guilty for doing that.

When I read about women complaining that they have to write Christmas cards for their husbands/partner's friends and relatives, I do think "well you're bringing that on yourself". I know that's not the topic of the op exactly, but it seems to come up quite a lot under "wife work".

With cleaning and tidying it's very hard to say without knowing what goes on in individual households. I know that some men complain if their wife/partner doesn't keep the house to a certain standard, so the bar is not always set by women.

In my household, my child's father does very little except load the dishwasher. I think it's a basic courtesy to clear up your own mess in a shared space. I dont think my own standards are particularly high.

I've often wondered if this is true statistically, if women are more likely to be tidy, or maybe tidy about certain types of things, than men. Many people clearly think so, but I have never been sure one way or the other.

My experience, which probably counts for nothing, when I was younger and moved around a lot living with different housemates, and time at university, was that there was no clear sex divide. I actually met and lived with more fastidious men than women. But it seems like once people get into serious heterosexual relationships and move in together, it seems like that's when the change happens and women suddenly feel responsible for making sure a home is tidy and get judged if it's not.

Somebody else's problem is a thing, but I think it often does have to be explicitly talked about. I for example always did this with oil changes on the care, until DH pointed out that while he is happy to take care of the details, I need to tell hi when the oil light comes on.

With cups it seems more like no one notices that the work is getting done, one person is just more on top of it.

People get mad because they feel like SEP is obvious, but once it is slotted into that bit of the brain, it isn't until you drag it into the frontal lobe.