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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Any Transcribers Here? Polly Carmichael re puberty blockers

66 replies

rogdmum · 25/05/2020 14:53

I’d like a transcription of the following recording from the 37 min mark. It’s Polly Carmichael talking about puberty blockers. The sound isn’t great, but I’d like a transcript to have in front of me,

If anyone is able/willing, DM me your rates and we can sort payment? I’ll of course share the transcript here. Grin

Thanks

soundcloud.com/user-664361280/dr-polly-carmichael-developments-and-dilemmas

OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 25/05/2020 15:25

I'll do it for nothing OP, just give me a few days x

SheSheHe · 25/05/2020 16:05

When was this recorded OP? Interesting.

rogdmum · 25/05/2020 16:08

OhHoly I am more than happy to pay! Don’t do it for free! Thank you, but please DM me with a rate!

SheSheHe It’s from a ACMAH conference in 2017.

OP posts:
ScrimpshawTheSecond · 25/05/2020 18:40

I can do it, but not til tomorrow.

Not like I'm a professional, but I'm a fast typist. Smile

Want to split it, OhHoly? Just shout, if so.

I also don't need paid.

OhHolyJesus · 25/05/2020 19:21

Good idea Scrimp. Will work out how long it is and we can halve it.

RODG I will never accept any payment. This is practical help I can offer you (and your family) and I do so willingly. I only wish there was more I could do. One day we will get these fuckers.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 25/05/2020 20:05

Grand. I reckon it's about 17 minutes? I'll do the first nine - 37 to 46, if you're happy to do the following 9?

And ditto repayment. Ditto ditto.

OhHolyJesus · 25/05/2020 20:40

Scrimp

Deal

Will do tomorrow whilst I'm at 'work'.

Post here once done? X

Gronky · 25/05/2020 20:41

@OhHolyJesus , @ScrimpshawTheSecond If it helps, here's a version with cleaned up audio:
soundcloud.com/user-311219606-453708466/dr-polly-carmichael-developments-and-dilemmas-349292070-acamh/s-PkoXDems6ch

It was cut to start at 36m, the noise reduction was modest because the levels fluctuate and there's a lot of resonance. You can tweak the equalisation further to what suits your ears but this was an attempt at being neutral (since different people do better with different frequency emphasis).

rogdmum · 25/05/2020 21:09

Thank you all, but I don’t feel right about not paying! If you want to make a charity suggestion(s) (and someone post DM me what would be an appropriate amount?) I will gladly do that instead?

Thank you!

OP posts:
rogdmum · 25/05/2020 21:10

*post or DM me

OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 25/05/2020 21:43

DH didn't want to watch TV so I've made a start. This woman in one of the most dangerous in living history. To quote her "without a doubt".

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 25/05/2020 23:02

Yes, I'm done, I think. Just tidying up and trying to clarify the [inaudible] bits.

I'm finishing, OhHolyJesus, just at about 10 minutes, where she's discussing the 4 year old who was hate-crime misgendered at school.

Hope that ties in with your timings. Will post it shortly.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 25/05/2020 23:02
  • thank you, Gronky, for the cleaned up audio!
OhHolyJesus · 25/05/2020 23:10

Works for me scrimp and thanks to gronky for that version which was easier to transcribe.

Mine needs a check back and clean up so will post tomorrow.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 25/05/2020 23:26

Dr Polly Carmichael

Developments and dilemmas

36– 46 minutes

… and you can see here that the increase in numbers in the number of sex assigned females coming forward is reflected in terms of the gender of the young people being referred to the clinic.

I’ve put this slide in because what the Dutch found who started early intervention about 15 years ago [inaudible – ‘could be longer’?] is that having embarked on physical interventions, really almost none of the young people felt that they wanted to stop. So I think, you know, once a young person has gone to the early intervention clinic, it’s very unlikely that they will then decide that they don’t want to continue down a physical route.

So we’ve had a few who have continued treatment elsewhere or who’ve [inaudible] ... one who has changed their mind and again, I guess that at that point in time they decided not to continue with physical intervention rather than change their mind, and one discontinued due to personal circumstances.

We do a lot of work with families - often we find with younger ones that one parent may be very very supportive, very keen for this intervention to take place, and the other holds all the anxiety and worry about whether this is the right way forward. And I think that work is very important and useful really in terms of the young person [inaudible] as well with the family so that all the different viewpoints are heard.

So the rationale for the blocker. So we said that very few people actually stop once they’ve [?commenced on?… ] the blocker. So ideally you’d be thinking that in some way people [are?] choosing to do that or as the Dutch and ourselves say, we have carefully selected young people who go forward with this treatment. What one’s trying to to do is obviously support young people who are in that percentage who would be continuing.

But of course, no tester[?] if you like is 100% accurate, so either we’re not including some people who would benefit […] or the treatment itself has some impact on the outcome. I’m not making a comment about whether that’s good or bad, I’m making an observation about the data. So the blocker is put forward as a diagnostic intervention, it’s a time to explore and understand and consolidate, and it’s also put forward as a fully reversible treatment. But, really, we don’t know fully what it’s impact is in terms of the developing brain and we don’t know if the [?sum?] it changes things that may have been pre-programmed to go another way.

So, I think you know it would be disingenuous to say it is fully reversible, nothing is fully reversible. And I think it is important that we do more research, really, to understand the impact of these treatments on developing brains.

So the timing of the blocker, not before Tanner stage 2 is a bit of a nod in that direction, and I guess that is based on the fact that we knew that the data suggested that the majority of those coming forward prepubertally didn’t necessarily elect to go forward for physical treatments, so it was thought that perhaps the influence of [inaudible?] sex hormones at puberty may in some way be important in terms of an individual’s identity development.

So how much, how much is enough? We don’t know,but that’s why it’s Tanner stage 2, so the person has experienced some of their own puberty.

So, I think we’re all the time balancing evidence and practise, so on the one hand there’s perhaps a [few?] that behaviour and emotional difficulties young people experience are largely secondary to gender dysphoria and that if you can treat that distress around gender … with physical interventions then those difficulties will go away.

But the truth is we have very little published long term outcome data, and the Dutch really are the only group who have published perspective data looking at the impact of physical treatments, and their data is a heterogeneous group including people of different ages, so those from 12 up until early adulthood.

So we have been looking specifically at those starting the blocker in the early stages of puberty. What we have to know is that there is not a consensus amongst professionals, and there are concerns around impact on health, and even though there isn’t consensus, there are teams exploring the possibility of lowering age limits, particularly of cross sex hormones, although they acknowledge the lack of long term data, and I guess this is very much a reflection of the way people think about and conceptualise gender has more impact really on the way in which care is delivered than does any evidence base, and I think what we really need to be doing is getting the evidence base to catch up with that.

So in most case of childhood GD, the wish to transition to a different gender will have abated by the end of puberty [inaudible] the Dutch team. figures of how many continue to experience gender dysphoria vary and they are very [?rightly?] contested.

So the I think the take-home message is that the impact of the changing context of gender diversity and how it is expressed needs to be taken into account and understood.
We need to acknowledge there is a heterogeneous group that isn’t like you know like a blood test or a diagnosis, this is people’s identity, their sense of themselves, and we have a very mixed group coming forward to the service and as a health service we need to have a model that takes into account all these different presentations.

So in terms of the context. I think gender identities are diversifying without a doubt on this [?inaudible?] a brief look at this slide – [Jen?] I know you’ve covered this in much more detail than I could. But it is amazing really how much things have changed over even the last 5 years really and more and more the case. We’re seeing many more different gender identities, if you like, coming forward and being expressed.

Support and information is much more readily available. Social media, as I’ve said. Political interest and lobbying. The Women and Equalities’ first legal meeting was on gender, and we got some very strong things to say following that about provision for young people experiencing gender diversity.

The age at which young people are socially transitioning is really getting much earlier. As I’ve previously mentioned many [?are moving?] on stealth. And I think what’s emerged are newer approaches to care now there’s about to be a memorandum banning ? therapy. and in a way this is sort of how the debate … polarised, this idea of [comparative?] v affirmative, which is a newly emerging approach.

I think we’ve accused of being [comparative?] I find that deeply insulting and inaccurate if anything we’ve been really affirmative not [comparative] and so I think we need to be really careful to actually be clear what we’re talking about and what things actually mean because how things get translated into practise are sometimes very different and certainly in terms of the affirmative approach we’ve seen now very young children [ technology interruptions … inaudible] we’ve seen very very young people who’ve fully socially transitioned age 3 or 4, and there’s one particular case where the parents who’ve obviously [got] the best interests of their child at heart, and are wanting to be protective for their child and do their best by them but what they wanted from us really was to get in contact with the school to address a hate crime. And the hate crime was that another young child had misgendered this very young child who’d socially transitioned at school.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 25/05/2020 23:27

The last couple of paragraphs I really struggled to make out the model used as an alternative to 'affirmative'. I think it was 'comparative', would that make sense? Too muffled to be sure.

ANewCreation · 25/05/2020 23:45

Thanks so much for doing this. Really helpful and extraordinary to see it written down.

Think she is actually saying 'reparative' therapy which is another name for conversion therapy which would make sense.

LeftHandDown · 25/05/2020 23:46

How on earth can the NHS and by default the government support medicalising kids as they're starting puberty knowing the majority will desist as puberty progresses and consider medicalising earlier without rigorous research and data behind that decision?

Socially transitioning children of 3/4 is abhorant, yet Carmichael is so blase about it.

So the timing of the blocker, not before Tanner stage 2 is a bit of a nod in that direction, and I guess that is based on the fact that we knew that the data suggested that the majority of those coming forward prepubertally didn’t necessarily elect to go forward for physical treatments, so it was thought that perhaps the influence of [inaudible?] sex hormones at puberty may in some way be important in terms of an individual’s identity development.

Did anything ever come of that group that was supposed to be looking at puberty blockers on children?

NotBadConsidering · 26/05/2020 00:11

The Dutch study is frequently quoted as showing how

NotBadConsidering · 26/05/2020 00:12

So, I think you know it would be disingenuous to say it is fully reversible, nothing is fully reversible. And I think it is important that we do more research, really, to understand the impact of these treatments on developing brains

Angry
OldCrone · 26/05/2020 00:22

So, I think you know it would be disingenuous to say it is fully reversible, nothing is fully reversible.

And yet in this children's TV programme, the same Dr Polly Carmichael tells a child that they can be injected with this blocker, and if they decide to stop, the body will resume its development, just as it would if they had never had the treatment.

www.transgendertrend.com/uk-cbbc-childrens-tv-i-am-leo/

The 'Dr Polly' bit starts at about 21 mins in.

Which is it Polly? Fully reversible or not fully reversible? Were you lying to this child and all the other children watching?

rogdmum · 26/05/2020 08:07

@OhHolyJesus , @ScrimpshawTheSecond and @Gronky thank you so much! If you each let me know your pet charity, I’ll make donations.

I get so fed up of the claim that puberty blockers are fully reversible because we don’t know and these children/adolescents are effectively guinea pigs in what can be seen as a social movement- I.e. are there “trans” children or should they be viewed as children with gender dysphoria or confusion. And yes, the Dutch study looks at an entirely different cohort.

OP posts:
rogdmum · 26/05/2020 08:12

Oh and that was in 2017 and she’s talking about wanting to do research on the impact on brain development. Three years on, where’s even the push for research to be done?

OP posts:
OldCrone · 26/05/2020 08:56

Oh and that was in 2017 and she’s talking about wanting to do research on the impact on brain development.

And the "I am Leo" programme, where she encouraged children to take them, implying they were harmless, was in 2014.

Aesopfable · 26/05/2020 09:13

But of course, no tester[?] if you like is 100% accurate, so either we’re not including some people who would benefit […] or the treatment itself has some impact on the outcome. I’m not making a comment about whether that’s good or bad, I’m making an observation about the data

Not making a comment about whether it is a bad thing to subject children to treatments she has no idea about the impact of? Or treatments which may cause otherwise healthy children to become lifelong medical patients including horrendous surgery, and much increased suicide risk?

The other thing that always strikes me here is she is not a medic, she does not have medical training, and I think this shows in her dismissive attitude to the physical body. Her focus is on the child’s thoughts only and manipulating the body is only considered in so far as it can affirm the child’s thoughts. It is quite clear that they are pandering to activists and are making it up as they go along.