Autism : providing healthy and positive alternatives to Gender Identity ideology

[NonnyMouse1337]

Anyone can be swept up into Gender Identity ideology. However, there does seem to be a higher incidence of autistic people who are susceptible to this outlook. Based on stories from parents, detransitioners etc it appears that autistic girls, and to some extent autistic boys, are more likely to claim / identify as trans, non-binary and so on.

Medical and scientific material mention the links between autism and gender dysphoria / transgenderism in passing. I could be mistaken but I don't think anyone has seriously examined what might be the cause(s) of such a link.

Organisations and charities for autism have fully capitulated to the Gender Identity lobby and are not concerned in the slightest by the disproportionate rise in transgenderism among autistics / aspies.

Online spaces like Facebook and Reddit groups for those on the autistic spectrum are full of Gender Identity believers and there's very little room for open criticism or alternatives presented to this fashionable trend.

It must be tricky as an autistic adult or child to find yourself in spaces that frame any discomfort you might have with certain types of clothing or gendered social behaviours and stereotypes as a sure sign that you are trans.

I have been wondering for a while on how to create a space for more healthy discussions around issues that autistic people might face, especially autistic women and girls; the frustrations and confusions that can arise from gendered stereotypes and that it's totally ok to be yourself without jumping to the conclusion that you must be the opposite sex.

A Facebook group might not be ideal because there is a risk of people's real names and personal information being exposed by troublemakers fishing for such stuff. A space on Reddit would need basic levels of moderation and supervision to stop users who are not members of the group from brigading for example, and I don't currently have the time to invest in being an admin or mod.

I'm open to suggestions, but for now I thought to stick up a thread here and use it as a space for anyone who is interested to discuss what are the issues autistic women and children might face, and how might we provide alternatives and better narratives / role models to help them feel happy and comfortable with being themselves.
Lots of people who aren't on the autistic spectrum also struggle with gendered stereotypes, however there might be some recurrent problems specific to autism that would be worth discussing.

Those of us with ASD (or those who have loved ones with ASD) and who are critical of Gender Identity ideology might still struggle with stuff - feeling like we don't fit in or singled out for not conforming. Do you think a space or thread specifically for autistic women and girls would be useful or worthwhile? What kind of support do you think is lacking or what do you think would help autistic women and children?

I heard Temple talk. It was interesting to hear her say first and foremost she considered herself a college professor, then expert in the meat industry and after those autistic. She also had no idea why people would want or need an autism diagnosis in adulthood. I think she saw a diagnosis as necessary for support through school but if you were ‘successful’ in adulthood then what was the point?

She also had no idea why people would want or need an autism diagnosis in adulthood.

Because she is autistic and therefore probably has difficulty in putting herself into someone else's position.

Getting an autism diagnosis as an adult can have exactly the same consequences as getting a dyslexia diagnosis as an adult: "I'm not stupid after all!"

Depends on the definition of successful, I guess. For a lot of autistic adults who are undiagnosed, life can be a real struggle. It can be difficult to keep down a job or adapt to noisy office environments, you fall out with friends and loved ones, you struggle with depression and other mental health issues because you are aware that you never quite fit in but don't know why it's difficult to be like others etc. Some people do feel there's no point in pursuing a diagnosis for themselves if they are happy, but for those adults who do end up getting one, it really makes a big difference in understanding yourself better, feeling more confident in asking your employer to accommodate your difficulties in certain situations, or finding friends and partners who are more accepting of your traits. Of course there's very little additional support for adults, and your employer or family might ignore your diagnosis or think you are simply being difficult, but it can still be a meaningful process in itself.

If I'm not mistaken, Temple Grandin was diagnosed in childhood, had certain support during her development into adulthood, and was also fortunate to never have to attend a job interview. Many autistic people aren't so lucky.
I find her insight into autism enlightening, even if I might not agree with everything she says. I've only read bits and pieces of her work though. I love her stuff on animals.

Because she is autistic and therefore probably has difficulty in putting herself into someone else's position.

Possibly. I think everyone was quite surprised by this perspective. ‘Successful’ was my word but I meant it on a more general level of living independently as opposed to needing carers. I found her talk fascinating more for the way she said stuff than what she said which seemed quite muddled - not ill thought out but rather switching between topics. I would quite like to hear her talk on her favourite subject - the meat industry. I suspect her talks on that would be easier to follow.

The things she was most upset about was what she referred to as the ‘waste of autistic boys lives’; hiding in basements playing computer games all day rather than making use of their potential.

My daughter was diagnosed when she was 6. It was really important to her, she knew that she wasn't the same as other children in her class. She was very upset and self harming because she couldn't make sense of anything. Her diagnosis has helped her enormously to understand and manage her anxiety.

My dissertation during my undergrad was on the causes of autism.

During my research I looked at something called the Extreme Male Brain Theory of Autism, by Simon Baron-Cohen. I can’t recall the full details but you may well be able to find one of his papers online. From memory, autistic people process the world in a way which is stereotypically (to an extreme) ‘male’. You might think this is a load of gunk if you reject male / female stereotypes but I suppose that’s the point - the reinforcement of these stereotypes is only pushing young women to feel they aren’t at home in their bodies if they feel their experience of the world are different to their female peers. Just throwing it out there as something you might want to look at if you’re interested in the topic.

I've heard about Simon Baron-Cohen's Extreme Male Brain Theory of Autism, although I haven't read the full paper. I've seen dismissals and criticisms of it, but haven't been able to understand exactly what the arguments for and against it are.

I still have to finish Gina Rippon's book 'The Gendered Brain'. I asked her about the extreme male brain theory in a public talk but she didn't seem to think it held much merit.
I've been trying to look for critiques of Gina Rippon's work as well.

I recently watched / listened to Sophie Scott's video on 'Getting brain sex wrong'. She explained that although there are some differences between the sexes, they aren't as significant as the differences between age groups. Also if you use a small group for your study, you might see some larger differences; however these differences reduce or go away when you increase the size of the cohort for the study.

Simon Baron-Cohen's theory has largely been dismissed by the autistic community and other experts.

As @NonnyMouse1337 says there are only teeny differences between male and female brains, really negligible. Assigning male and female brains plays into stereotyping and such nonsense as women being more caring anden being better at building.

dismissed by the autistic community and other experts

Being autistic doesn’t make you expert in anything other than your own presentation of autism. Being part of a community doesn’t make you an expert either and can make you vulnerable to ‘groupthink’. Just look at the trans community and all their pronouncements. For something to be wrong there has to be more that ‘we as a community don’t like that idea’.

(I am not saying you can’t become an expert or that I agree with SBC brain idea)

Just seen this:

www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/gender-change-is-no-fix-for-autism/news-story/3b1f6b896bdee58f9be871d477caf3f0?nk=b4d44585c23a5b58d6f3e3c98ea0a9eb-1591349591

Thanks for sharing this, NeurotrashWarrior!

Further discussion on the article in this thread.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3929354-Tony-Attwood-article

Resurrecting this thread because I'm looking for information.

My ASD daughter has announced that she is transgender. She is 18 and I had stupidly thought that we were just scraping through teenagehood relatively unscathed....

I'm struggling because I'm an Adult Human Female. DD acknowledges she can't change sex, but wants to "present" as a boy no, I don't think she is mature enough to think of herself as an adult, either female or male

Please can somebody more knowledgeable point me towards any research that's been done about autistic girls and transgenderism?

I know she has body issues, she says she has gender dysphoria. But this morning on Women's Hour, Dr David Bell (?) was differentiating between having gender dysphoria and being trans - you could be one without the second.

Over the years I've read about the high percentage of autistic girls wanting to transition, I just didn't realise our daughter was one of them.

It's great she only wants to present as s boy and not 'change' sex.
Basically she is being gender nonconforming, which most of us are. There is no need to label herself as trans. Could you explore this with her? Think back to the 80s when there seemed to be do much more freedom to express yourself.
As for links between autism and transgenderism I would be interested too. I mum to two autistic girls and the parent groups I'm in are all for affirmation and have almost come to the conclusion if you are an autistic girl being trans is inevitable, which is ridiculous. There goes seem to be s high proportion of gender questioning autistic girls in the Tavistock (25 percent of all girls I believe) but we need research in to why they are there.
Is it black and white thinking?
Literal thinking?
I dress like a boy so I must be a boy?
I have short hair I must be a boy?
Also the many undiagnosed girls thinking what is wrong with me and latching on to trans?
Wanting to belong to a group?
Being a lesbian but not understanding that?
I don't have the answers hopefully others may be able to express better than me.

What does she mean by 'present as a boy'?

I've realised recently that when some teens say this, they mean 'wearing boys' clothes'. You don't seem to be able to be a girl who wears boys' clothes now without it having deeper significance about who you are.

I almost exclusively wore boys' clothes at that age. They were baggy, soft materials and I wanted to completely opt out of any competitive fashion show that my class-mates were engaged in. I hated fitted clothes, both for sensory reasons, and also because emphasising my breasts to the view of passing male strangers was the last thing I wanted. I couldn't deal with male sexual harassment, so avoidance was my main strategy.

NonnyMouse1337, my autistic DD (who posts on here as Suffrajester) runs a group called Gender Critical Autistics on Facebook.
They occasionally get trolled by TRAs but are good at blocking them.
Any GC autistics from here who would like to join the group will find it a safe supportive space.

Unfortunately DD's idea of presenting as a boy involves taking testosterone and a double mastectomy. Not just dressing in a masculine way (which she does already).

I took a screenshot previously, but don't know the source. Does anyone recognise where this information is from please?

oxalisRed that is very worrying that your daughter is contemplating testosterone and a double mastectomy.

Maube you can keep the conversation going by explaining how these are not minor cosmetic procedures. They carry a lot of risk and potential for severe lifelong complications. Much of transgender surgery and medical practice is completely experimental in nature.

Maybe you can ask her to watch some videos of trans people and detransitioners who talk about how their health was affected? Have you heard of Scott Newgent who is a trans man and openly talks about his experience with transitioning?

www.newsweek.com/we-need-balance-when-it-comes-gender-dysphoric-kids-i-would-know-opinion-1567277

You can ask her if she knows she isn't going to change sex, why she feels the need to have major surgery? I'm sure it must be very difficult to hear, but it's worth staying calm and trying to gently probe why she is deeply unhappy with her body as it is. Maybe there are sensory issues or some unpleasant past experiences, or maybe she is spending too much time online and in certain social circles where transitioning is celebrated without mentioning the consequences.