Autism : providing healthy and positive alternatives to Gender Identity ideology

[NonnyMouse1337]

Anyone can be swept up into Gender Identity ideology. However, there does seem to be a higher incidence of autistic people who are susceptible to this outlook. Based on stories from parents, detransitioners etc it appears that autistic girls, and to some extent autistic boys, are more likely to claim / identify as trans, non-binary and so on.

Medical and scientific material mention the links between autism and gender dysphoria / transgenderism in passing. I could be mistaken but I don't think anyone has seriously examined what might be the cause(s) of such a link.

Organisations and charities for autism have fully capitulated to the Gender Identity lobby and are not concerned in the slightest by the disproportionate rise in transgenderism among autistics / aspies.

Online spaces like Facebook and Reddit groups for those on the autistic spectrum are full of Gender Identity believers and there's very little room for open criticism or alternatives presented to this fashionable trend.

It must be tricky as an autistic adult or child to find yourself in spaces that frame any discomfort you might have with certain types of clothing or gendered social behaviours and stereotypes as a sure sign that you are trans.

I have been wondering for a while on how to create a space for more healthy discussions around issues that autistic people might face, especially autistic women and girls; the frustrations and confusions that can arise from gendered stereotypes and that it's totally ok to be yourself without jumping to the conclusion that you must be the opposite sex.

A Facebook group might not be ideal because there is a risk of people's real names and personal information being exposed by troublemakers fishing for such stuff. A space on Reddit would need basic levels of moderation and supervision to stop users who are not members of the group from brigading for example, and I don't currently have the time to invest in being an admin or mod.

I'm open to suggestions, but for now I thought to stick up a thread here and use it as a space for anyone who is interested to discuss what are the issues autistic women and children might face, and how might we provide alternatives and better narratives / role models to help them feel happy and comfortable with being themselves.
Lots of people who aren't on the autistic spectrum also struggle with gendered stereotypes, however there might be some recurrent problems specific to autism that would be worth discussing.

Those of us with ASD (or those who have loved ones with ASD) and who are critical of Gender Identity ideology might still struggle with stuff - feeling like we don't fit in or singled out for not conforming. Do you think a space or thread specifically for autistic women and girls would be useful or worthwhile? What kind of support do you think is lacking or what do you think would help autistic women and children?

Thanks for this Nonny . Such a space would be very welcome for parents like me (mother of a autistic teen who currently identifies as a boy) as well as others generally concerned about the issue.

Are you on Twitter at all? I know it’s an absolute cesspit but if you make liberal use of the blocking facility, it’s a good way to generate conversation and awareness- possibly with a link to a blog where you could link external articles plus your well crafted essays (I always look for your posts here because they are so eloquent and I think they need a wider audience!)

I’ve been bitterly disappointed by the capture of the various organisations and charities out there to support autism, with the notable exception of @HampshireAutism but I’d hope that as awareness increases, maybe more will become more questioning?

NonnyMouse, I just wanted to say that I'm glad you started this thread, as I have been deeply worried at reports regarding the number of autistic girls being treated at gender identity clinics.

I have also read comments from autistic women saying that had they been told, as teenagers, about being trans and that their gender identity might be a boy, they would have been eager to transition. From what I can tell, whatever confusion dissipated as they got older, and they are very happy adult women.

I did not know that gender confusion was common amongst autistic kids, and this thread is also helping me learn more about how and why it arises.

I have read that some gender identity clinics treat gender issues in isolation, by applying an affirming strategy (including through some medical interventions such as puberty blockers) without addressing other factors that may have caused the child's gender confusion, whether that be autism, childhood trauma, MH problems such as anxiety or depression, etc. I don't know how true these reports are, but I worry that a lot of autistic and same-sex attracted girls are being put on entirely the wrong path, in the name of a gender ideology that, frankly, seems to reaffirm sex-based stereotypes that women have been fighting for many decades to dismantle.

I remember the NAS at first expressing concern at this - then there was the full pro-trans pile on and they caved...

Thank you for the compliment rogdmum. I didn't realise you looked out for some of my posts.

I don't use Twitter. I've always felt I could never fit in what I wanted to say in posts that are only 140 characters long. Several people have commented on how long my emails and posts are in general.

I definitely think there needs to be some public scrutiny of the policies and approaches being implemented by various organisations and charities for autism. The trans stuff gets everywhere!

HereForTheFeminismChat it's shocking that the gender identity services do not look at the wider picture and background of children's lives, when there can be so many factors involved in why they might feel they are 'in the wrong body'.

I definitely struggled with the ideas around being a woman until I was maybe in my mid twenties. A lot of my interests and hobbies didn't really match with other girls and I felt very isolated and my problems meant that I was somehow not good at 'being a woman'. I would have totally fallen for trans ideology claiming that my difficulty in social situations and relationships meant that I should change my body to fit my 'gender' soul.

I suspect a LOT of trans activists are autistic. There seems a lot of overlap between ‘trans identity’ and ‘autist identity’. Same approach to ‘allies’ and dismissing ‘autism moms’ for speaking on behalf of their autistic children (though ironically I suspect many are autistic themselves). The loud insistent voices dismissing others who disagree. The self-identification. The extolling of ‘lived experience’ over study and knowledge. And then also amongst the TRAs the black and white thinking, inability to consider other perspectives, the reliance on stereotypes to categorise people... Many of the loudest voices in the autism community are recent diagnosed/self ID as adults.

I have also seen the dismissing of mothers as ‘autism moms’ (never fathers) accompanied by the same reassuring call to join their ‘true family who understands you’.

Good points, Aesopfable. There does seem to be a very vocal section of autistic people who use autism as another type of identity label and seem unwilling to engage with parents, and vilify mothers, or overemphasize 'lived experience' above everything else.

Just placemarking to read properly later. I'm autistic and would have been swept away by this stuff as a gender-confused child who played at being a boy.

Great thread and one I’ve considered asking for myself. My DD is 5 and diagnosed ASD and I worry about her future as she has always been drawn to stereotypically “boy” interests like vehicles, dinosaurs and science. She’s never been remotely interested in dolls and prams and pink sparkly stuff and is happier in a dinosaur t shirt digging in the mud or reading her science and nature encyclopaedias (she is hyperlexic and has been reading fluently since 4).

We’ve taken the approach (since she was born tbh and before she was ever diagnosed) of just providing her with a range of toys and books and letting her choose what she wants without comment. Then allowed her to explore her own interests and obsessions.

Recently (last year or so) we’ve begun a very subtle “propaganda” campaign with her whenever a relevant situation/discussion comes up to explain how “boys” and “girls” labels are just silly things that some people say because they have silly beliefs about what girls and boys should wear/do/be/play with and given her examples we know she would find funny and that play to her strong sense of logic and reason. Like “I’m a woman. If I put on one of daddy’s work shorts would I suddenly be a man?” “No” she laughs. “And if daddy put on one of my dresses would be suddenly be a mummy?” “No” she laughs again “No he’d just be daddy in a dress wouldn’t he?! It’s so silly when people say you can’t wear what you want isn’t it? It doesn’t change who you are underneath”.

We also play to her love of science and chat about things like mammals can’t change sex. But other animals can, “like worms!” she says.

I’ve also explained in an appropriate context that some people still feel really uncomfortable with how they look on the outside and have surgery to look like the other sex. And that we should be kind and let people live how they want to. But that your DNA doesn’t actually change sex because mammals can’t do that.”

It all sounds quite intense written down but it’s all done in a very very low key way when it is contextually appropriate. And I want to get these ideas set in her head so to speak so that she is in a position to be more “resistant” to trans ideology as she grows up.

This feels like the right approach to me. She is very naive for her age despite being highly intelligent and gifted, her social emotional development is years behind. I worry about how easily she could be influenced in the future.

I hope and pray that maintaining and very close and trusting relationship she will continue to come to me for support. I anticipate she will really really struggle with her body changing during puberty and dealing with periods etc. She has a lot of sensory issues around personal care already...her hair is kept in a (cute!) bob cut for example because she hates having it washed and brushed and I fear it would turn into a matted mess if longer (she won’t tie it up either).

Anyway tired and rambling now

I think thats a great approach Knox

You've just reminded me of that transgender trend book for young children illustrated but Jessica Albergh, it's all about how we can change our clothes and dress up and all are different in our own skin. Beautiful book.

Has she seen Dino Dana on Amazon? She'd love it!

Knoxinbox your approach sounds great! Maybe others here might find similar techniques useful. I hope your daughter continues to realise that she can trust you and turn to you for help as she gets older.

I wish every school could get a copy of the transgender trend book for young children. Fingers crossed there will be some major changes in the next few years in pushing back on gender identity ideology. There have been some significant gains recently which is really promising.

My dd LOVES Dino Dana!

What a great thread!

My neurodivergency was only identified within the last 5 years.

I was a teenager in the 00s, and I've been clear in my own mind since then that I surely would have been trans myself, if my family had been inclined to tell me that 'this is for boys' 'this is for girls' all the time.

My family got a lot 'wrong' in my childhood, I certainly didn't grow up in a feminist space at all, but one thing I've always been glad of was that the concept of girls' stuff vs boys' stuff was openly ridiculed (by my mother especially).

It seemed logical to me (still does), that if I'd been told over and over
"you can't do that, you shouldn't like that, you're a girl, that's for boys"
(dinosaurs, bugs, trucks, science, space, encyclopaedias, mud, climbing, dungarees, etc)

and "you must do this, you ought to like this, girls have to do this, boys don't"
(pink, dollies, dresses, sewing, etc)
then of course I would have concluded that I'm really a boy 'on the inside'! For a 'gender non-conforming' child who grows surrounded by people who enforce 'gender conformity', it's a rational conculsion.

Your description of your daughter sounds so like me at that age, Knoxinabox! :) I think you're approaching this really well. :)

Knoxinbox, rather.

Aw thanks all, so nice and reassuring to hear you agree with our approach. It’s not something there’s much guidance on (that isn’t dripping with regressive sexist BS) so we kind of decided to wing it with what we felt was right.

We want her to grow up understanding and respecting that other people feel and believe different things and we always have to be kind and tolerant of others, but that being a girl means she can dress/do/say/like/play with/wear whatever she likes and still be a girl.

I think it helps she now has a little brother (almost 2 years old) who likes to carry around her rag dolls, a little pink baby dolly and her baby doll pram, which as I say we provided her with a range of “gendered” () toys to choose from and she never showed the slightest bit of interest in. So she sees him playing with “girls” toys alongside the trains/diggers/dinosaurs without anyone passing comment.

He also loves to choose and wear one of her sparkly hair clips when she picks one in the mornings. In fact, she said the other day “he looks like a girl” (in a pink sparkly clip) and I said “don’t be ridiculous, he’s just a boy with a pink hair clip, he likes it because it’s shiny and it’s yours DD.” So I hope all of these drip drip drip messages will instill themselves in her

Thanks for the book and program recommendations 👍

Knox, have a look at Ada Twist, Scientist, a story about a girl who wants to be a scientist.

Here's another story about a girl, by the same author, read by a woman astronaut on the ISS:

https://storytimefromspace.com/rosie-revere-engineer-2/

We want her to grow up understanding and respecting that other people feel and believe different things and we always have to be kind and tolerant of others,

And that we do not have to believe what others believe.

Some autistic children are immune to others' beliefs, but many are vulnerable - especially girls trying hard to fit in - so it's something we have to actually teach.

we always have to be kind and tolerant of others

I am not sure this is a good message to teach. It seems to give other people too much leeway.

Copying and pasting some interesting info from another thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3908239-Shropshire-County-Council-has-withdrawn-the-toolkit

Poster Clunchee notes the following:

An influential voice in the SEND world is SN Jungle. Huge social media reach, and they are often asked by govt to give views on policy. They are one of the top 'go to' places for SEND parents.

One of their main organisers has the initials TT. She is a fierce and brilliant advocate for parents and young people. She also has a young person who is trans (with either ASC/ADHD), and is also autistic herself.

She appears to be firmly of the affirmation approach, although superbly rational and deploys critical thinking in every other area. I suspect this one thing is largely responsible for a lot of SEND support for trans positivity. The community are so grateful for TT's work and influence, they would not challenge her on this. Her power goes a long, long way.

Plus of course, parents of children with SEND are very used to their children's needs not being met and their views being ignored. Therefore more pressure to affirm a child who says they are trans (often with ASC).

Very dangerous set of circumstances.

Link here to a recent article on SNJ. Long intro by TT and then link to guest article.

www.specialneedsjungle.com/trans-daughter-unexpected-gift/

This is the author of the book recommended by TT to parents of SEND children

www.grattonpsychotherapy.com/

They are (of course! ) a member of WPATH.

And that we do not have to believe what others believe.

Some autistic children are immune to others' beliefs, but many are vulnerable - especially girls trying hard to fit in - so it's something we have to actually teach.

Oh yes we do emphasise this too. I was trying to be brief and nuance is hard to get across on MN I find.

I am not sure this is a good message to teach. It seems to give other people too much leeway.

Maybe a better way to say it is we try to teach her that she should be respectful towards other people that believe different things to her for example a belief in God, even if she doesn’t agree with them.

Obviously that has a limit - like being respectful towards fascists or something?! But I’m sure you get my drift....?

It would be great to promote a greater understanding that autistic kids are just a bit different, in various ways, and don't always or even often fit the prescriptive models of difference that they're offered by schools and in society, around gender.

One powerful thing could be to gather stories or statements from autistic adults about their own gender non-conforming childhoods and the likelihood that, had they been told of it, they would have identified as trans and developed a difficult relationship with their body.

It's been a theme of trans activism in the past couple of years to try to undermine the literature on desistence - a dozen or so small studies have shown that a majority of gender dysphoric children desist (ie recocile themselves with their body) by adulthood. The majority varies a lot from half to high ninety percent; so usually the consensus figure of 80% or 85% is used.

In a sense then it's the voices of those 85% we need to hear - and of course we don't hear, because they've moved on, long ago. Because if we don't hear about them, then we only hear about the remaining 15% who end up on the medical path, so good policy doesn't get made that fits the needs of the 85% as much as the 15%, and wider society comes to believe that the proper response for any child who has gender ID issues is to transition.

It could be simply a website with a statement, that people could add their names to with a comment. A bit like project nessie.

That does sound like a good idea, archery2. I shall have a serious think about that. Thanks! 🤔

Excellent idea, as all are on this thread archery.

I'd urge as many W people as possible to read and watch as much as possible about and by Temple Grandin. She just explains so well how and why autistic people are the way they are.