Does Scotland not have sex as a protected characteristic?!

[stumbledin]

Justice Secretary Humza Yousaf is quoted as saying (re hate crime):

" ... The Bill builds on existing laws. It retains existing characteristics in relation to the aggravation of offences by prejudice and adds age as a new characteristic.

" ...The Bill provides for new ‘stirring up’ of hatred offences that would apply to all characteristics listed in the Bill: age, disability, race, religion, sexual orientation, transgender identity and variations in sex characteristics. ... "

SEX CHARACTERISTICS - surely this isn't right. Or is it just plain female erasure. ie the old trans narrative of there being no sex so sexism cant exist????

And later on says:

" ... Lord Bracadale recommended that gender should be added to hate crime law. Leading women’s organisations were opposed to this. They proposed a standalone offence on misogynistic harassment be developed, which the Scottish Government is committed to in principle.

A working group will consider how Scotland’s criminal justice system deals with misogyny, including consideration of a specific offence on misogynistic harassment and whether sex should be added to the characteristics in hate crime law. ... "

I am totally bemused.

How did things get so bad in Scotland that they are having to discuss sex being added as a characteristic??

I was aware from the work of ForWomen.Scot of just how strong the trans infilitration of goverment and "civil society" but never ever dreamed that sex was not accepted as a protected characteristic.

Beyond words.

Hate crime laws are different from the Equality Act 2010, which is UK wide and includes the protected characteristic of sex.

Existing hate crime laws cover 5 characteristics - disability, race, religion, sexual orientation and transgender identity. The new bill in Scotland is trying to consolidate the three separate hate laws that currently cover these characteristics. It also introduces some disturbing new offences relating to stirring up hate, as well as including the option to include sex as a characteristic at a later date.

Our Gov funded "feminist" organisation successfully argued for sex to be left out of the Bill, but that's another story.

I have serious reservations about any “hate crime” laws. They are a threat to free speech, and closely resemble the old blasphemy laws.
I could foresee feminists being prosecuted for simply expressing gender critical views or refusing to accept that men can change sex.
Existing laws can already cover so called hate crimes, under things like incitement to violence.

Variations in sex characteristics?
What does this mean? Differences in penis sizes? Breasts? How are these relevant to hate crime law? Is it now a hate crime in Scotland to say X has a tiny penis?

I really want to know what variations in sex characteristics means, and why they are relevant. It’s very ambiguous.

I have serious reservations about any “hate crime” laws. They are a threat to free speech, and closely resemble the old blasphemy laws.
I could foresee feminists being prosecuted for simply expressing gender critical views or refusing to accept that men can change sex.
Existing laws can already cover so called hate crimes, under things like incitement to violence.

Agreed, particularly last sentence.

This is the next big issue we need to examine in Scotland.
If the 'protected characteristics' listed in Hate Crime bills are not based on the Equality Act, who decides what these protected groups are? Lobby groups with the most money and loudest voices and influence?

How exactly is 'transgender identity and variations in sex characteristics' defined?
Curious how sex is always left out of these things...

And yes, I want to examine the concept of hate crime laws in more detail. Does it actually help vulnerable groups and foster understanding between different people in the long-term? What are the pros and cons of these laws and why are they favoured over pre-existing laws?

I've heard from a source that the main goal for bringing this Bill together is to tackle sectarianism in Scotland, but I've not seen any publicised references to this .. and I'm not sure how one tackles sectarianism with such a wide reaching and blunt piece of legislation. How is one deemed to be 'stirring up hatred'? Laws should not be trying to police subjective interpretations or straying into the territory of thought crimes. Are we still maintaining a database of 'non-crime crimes' as exposed by Fair Cop?
People get offended and upset about lots of things. Doesn't necessarily mean whatever it is that hurt and upset them is a crime.

I really want to know what variations in sex characteristics means

Me too, me too.

Linking discussion threads.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3893216-Scottish-Governments-Hate-Crime-bill

Is it now a hate crime in Scotland to say X has a tiny penis?

I hope it's not retroactive or I'm in trouble! On hate crime laws in general though the whole concept needs a rethink, given how obvious it now is that it's being misused and that the police really aren't up to the task of navigating any nuances.

Our Gov funded "feminist" organisation successfully argued for sex to be left out of the Bill, but that's another story.

What the FUCK. Was their reasoning for this somehow trans related? Such a useful Trojan horse for woman-haters.

It's been clear for a while that that org has been thoroughly captured.

What do these laws add. Specifically. Particularly in terms of powers and suppression - that is not already covered by existing laws?

What is the purpose and reason for those specific additions?

I'll wait for that bloody awful phrase 'sending a message' which is so often used to justify utter, unprofessional bullshit that has no place in legislation.

And yes, the primary goal is always the silencing and suppressing of women having or even being allowed to talk about, boundaries.

I assume variations in sex characteristics is intended to refer to intersex. My guess is this is to create such an association between T and I that I cannot be mentioned without automatically implying the T.

The reason why sex isn't there is this risks creating a volume of offences the like which hasn't been seen before. You'd end up with the Police being deluged and then facing the prospect of either grinding to a halt in handling hate offences or dealing with hate offences based on sex by putting them in the bin without acting on them.

How did things get so bad in Scotland that they are having to discuss sex being added as a characteristic??

Wow. Ridiculous hyperbole.

How did things get so bad in Scotland that they are having to discuss sex being added as a characteristic??

I was aware from the work ofForWomen.Scotof just how strong the trans infilitration of goverment and "civil society" but never ever dreamed that sex was not accepted as a protected characteristic

You have misunderstood the existing law in Scotland and England and Wales.

Sex is a protected characteristic for the purposes of discrimination. You can't choose to select a man for a job simply because he is a man- or indeed you can't discriminate against a man simply because he is a man.

Sex is not one of the categories whereby a crime can be exacerbated simply because the victim is a woman or a man.

@nauticant I wouldn’t assume that at all, my first thought was it’s a hate crime to say x has a small penis or y has a tiny breasts - Z’s are much better. It absolutely needs clarifying, it’s very ambiguous. So, the conclusion in Scotland is, women suffer such large volumes of hate crime it’s best not to bother? Sweep —women— it under the carpet?

I assume it was intended to refer to intersex APocketFullOfButtons. What it could end up covering is anyone's guess. We've got a history of well-meaning laws being drafted to be vague enough to cover a wide variety of bad stuff and then captured institutions waking up to the possibilities that all kinds of other stuff can be acted against to suited particular political ends.

If it’s referring to DSD, then it should state it’s referring to DSD. I think sex characteristics it’s deliberately used to create confusion and hint towards there being some sex-based hate crime legislation.
I wonder, how can sexual orientation and transgender identity both be included in this? If a lesbian woman refuses to have romantic or sexual relations when she realises it’s a trans woman. Lesbian says I have a right to be a lesbian, I’ve done nothing wrong and they’re imposing themselves on my sexuality, trans woman says they’re hateful and they, as a human adult male, in women’s clothes or/and drugs is a lesbian and it’s a hate crime against not accepting their identity. Who is the victim here, legally speaking? What about that trans woman who filed a hate crime, because they were told they couldn’t have the female role in a porno? Would that be a hate crime?
We must ask questions. It’s vague, and it needs to be crystal clear.

Here you go:

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/variations-in-sex-characteristics-call-for-evidence

Variations in sex characteristics is the umbrella term we have chosen for this exercise, but we are also aware that there are other terms in use, such as intersex and differences of sex development.

It looks like in the UK governments are using the term variations in sex characteristics to refer to intersex and DSDs. Obviously with such vague wording there's scope for mischief.

Very cunning to choose that as the umbrella term. It’s hinting there are sex-based legislations, without there being any. Hopefully enough for it to go under the radar. DSD is perfectly adequate, clear and self-explanatory, unlike intersex and even more so than variations in sex characteristics.

I wonder, was there a list of different developmental conditions and they looked through them all, and proposed a list of why and why shouldn’t they be included in hate crime legislation.
I’d also like to know if they really did just decide there’s so much hate crime against women we may as well not bother.

One reason it's done is that "DSD" and "intersex" are well-known terms which carry understood meanings. Using "variations in sex characteristics" instead means that it doesn't have to carry these understood meanings. It can incorporate them and anything else you fancy. The importance of this is that if the new term becomes legally disputed, there's much more scope for defining, that is changing, its meaning in the course of proceedings. In other words, the new term means things can be made up as you go along.

There is already a law in Scotland that covers aggravated crimes against against people with the characteristic "transgender identity": the Offences (Aggravation by Prejudice) (Scotland) Act 2009. Yes, another law that seems to have been enacted without much notice at the time (and put forward by none other than Patrick Harvie).

According to this Act, transgender identity is defined as:
(a) transvestism, transsexualism, intersexuality, or anyone who has changed gender under GRA 2004; or
(b) any other gender identity that is not standard male or female gender identity.

The explanatory notes say transvestism is often referred to as cross-dressing, and the definition under (b) covers androgynous, non-binary, or those who exhibit any other characteristic, behaviour or appearance which does not conform with conventional understandings of gender identity.

There are no definitions given for any of the terms.

The new Hate Crime Bill (if it passes into law) will replace this Act, and has slightly changed the definition to:
14(7) A person is a member of a group defined by reference to transgender identity if the person is-
(a) a female-to-male transgender person,
(b) a male-to-female transgender person,
(c) a non-binary person,
(d) a person who cross-dresses.

So the definition has been narrowed down somewhat - demi/acegenders and everything else in the wider trans umbrella have been kicked out. But y'know, Scotgov somehow still think it essential to incorporate protection for cross-dressing (the number one paraphilia for sex offenders) into Scottish law. And there are still no definitions given for any of the terms.

The definition for sexual orientation has been carried forward from the same Act too. However, the definition has changed from:
A reference to sexual orientation is reference to sexual orientation towards persons of the same sex or of the opposite sex or towards both.

to:
A reference to sexual orientation is a reference to sexual orientation towards persons of the same sex, persons of a different sex, or both persons of the same sex and persons of a different sex.

Changing it from "opposite" sex to "different" sex implies that there are now more than two sexes.

NB. The Hate Crime Bill only refers to "characteristics". It's solely the Equality Act that refers to "protected characteristics".

Intersexuality is listed under transgender identity in the Offences (Aggravation by Prejudice) (Scotland) Act 2009, but has now been separated out into it's own characteristic for the new Hate Crime Bill, using the definition:
14(8) A person is a member of a group defined by reference to variations in sex characteristics if the person is born with physical and biological sex characteristics which, taken as a whole, are neither-
(a) those typically associated with males, nor
(b) those typically associated with females.

I believe grassroots dsd groups had argued during the consultation process for it NOT to be included in the Act at all. But the influence of Equality Network (variations in sex characteristics is their terminology, and who received large amounts of funding for doing work in this area, which they described as being in the early stages some 4 years later) has obviously taken priority.