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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Surrogacy on the NHS

257 replies

Viewfromtheisland · 04/05/2020 11:48

Didn’t know it was allowed in Scotland but I’ve been educated by the Daily Record today....

OP posts:
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OhHolyJesus · 04/05/2020 12:07

In addition there is a push to allow IVF for same sex couples in the NHS in the UK.

Surrogacy pregnancies on the NHS are tricky to say the least, but there is a push to allow:

  1. Commissioning parents at the birth, whether natural or c-section, in addition to the chosen birthing of the surrogate mother. That's a lot of extra people in an operating theatre.
  1. Accommodate CMs in a separate room so they can stay at the hospital whilst mother and baby/babies are being treated/recovering
  1. Allow the exchange of the baby to take place on site (a legal issue relating to the premises and any subsequent disagreements)

CMs are already allowed to scans and all medical appointments. Including questions around reducing (killing) a foetus regarding multiples and aminoscentisis.

All this requires safeguarding measures to be applied and would involve the midwives and consultants. How are the NHS supposed to do this on top of everything else they do?

In addition to being involved in writing MHS trust guidance these two are challenging the 'poor' take up of this guidance (guidance is not policy), anyway, take a look at their 'missions' 2, 3 and 4.

www.twodaddies.co.uk/

OhHolyJesus · 04/05/2020 12:08

Have you got the Daily Record link OP? Thanks.

Lynda07 · 04/05/2020 12:09

I didn't know it was available on the NHS in the UK at all.

OhHolyJesus · 04/05/2020 15:17

I found an FOI request on Surrogacy for Same-sex couples and a response:

"Currently surrogacy is being reviewed by Scottish Government and a national policy is being developed. There is no funding in place at this time for this treatment. Couples wishing to have surrogacy must find their own surrogate this is not a role any Fertility Centre can be involved in."

Which is interesting, given the above and the daily record article which I think is this OP?

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scotlands-first-gay-couple-access-21968033

Cattenberg · 04/05/2020 16:21

2. Accommodate CMs in a separate room so they can stay at the hospital whilst mother and baby/babies are being treated/recovering

Have these people ever seen an NHS post-natal ward? They’ll be lucky to get a curtained bay on the noisy ward itself, and good luck with getting some sleep. There might be one or two private rooms, but they’re normally reserved for mothers with infections, not visitors.

OhHolyJesus · 04/05/2020 16:26

To be fair I was broken after birth so wasn't paying much attention in the private room but when my husband went home and I went to a ward I was aware of other men around, mainly because of the snoring!

I'm not sure that men should be on the wards, being single sex for one thing but because of just the state you're in and a woman's needs should be prioritised at that time.

I don't think a side room is appropriate as you say Cat if they are for women with infections, so it can be contained.

Viewfromtheisland · 04/05/2020 17:57

Hi, sorry for the delay in responding. Yes, that was the link.

OP posts:
0v9c99f9g9d939d9f9g9h8h · 04/05/2020 18:01

You are behind the times. We were at uni with a couple who were accommodated in a hospital room over night as commissioning parents and were welcome at the birth. The surrogate had her own room and didn't have the baby with her. Her choice.

0v9c99f9g9d939d9f9g9h8h · 04/05/2020 18:02

This was perhaps seven years ago...

OhHolyJesus · 04/05/2020 18:46

*Her choice.
*
Not the choice of the Midwives who have to work around that then?

Cattenberg · 04/05/2020 19:24

When I had DD two years ago, she lost too much weight and I was put on a three hour cycle of waking DD up, breastfeeding, giving top-ups with a syringe, expressing, and sterilising. I had to set an alarm every 2 hours 45 minutes day and night. This was on a ward with about 20 other mums, who must have wanted to kill me. DD herself had to put up with a very noisy baby, three inches away in the next bay.

If there had been a free side room and it became known that the midwives gave it to NON-PATIENTS WITH NO MEDICAL NEED, there would have been a riot.

DidoLamenting · 04/05/2020 20:22

What a waste of NHS funding.

And before anyone yells bigot or homophobe I do not think this should be funded for lesbian or straight couples either.

OhHolyJesus · 04/05/2020 21:53

I mean if it was a quiet day and no one else was using a side room (hospitals aren't exactly built to have spare space are they?) I don't mind who uses it to bond with a newborn but to demand it as a right or as and as part of the surrogacy 'package' the NHS provides? That's taking the piss.

I saw a you tube clip today where a repeat surrogate mother mentioned how she shared a private room with the newborn and the CMs overnight and how she preferred to give birth at home.

I don't know what I think of that, I don't know how safe that is - I suppose the burden of care is not on the NHS?

Clymene · 04/05/2020 22:14

The NHS is a state funded medical service. Providing facilities for people who have bought a child is not part of their remit.

0v9c99f9g9d939d9f9g9h8h · 04/05/2020 22:15

oh

Not the kind of thing I'd know really, is it. What I find strange is this discussion as if it's cutting edge stuff. You're late to this party.

OhHolyJesus · 04/05/2020 22:43

Not really Ov9 did you see the date on the Daily Record article?

Also the Two Dads are campaigning for this, why bother if this is no longer an issue?

7 years ago you knew of a couple/CMs who were accommodated in the hospital at the SM's request. It might have been a one off, maybe it's an every day thing...at that NHS Trust, but if it was nationally par for the course why are Two Dads working on it as part of their 'mission'?

Maybe you could email them and let them know the party is over, the war is won and they can go back to the campaign for Dads having a space to change nappies too?

Most disabled public loos I come across double up as baby changing rooms. So whilst I don't think that's fair for disabled people who need the facilities maybe you could tell them that party is over too?

FannyCann · 04/05/2020 23:49

The Law Commission Consultation paper noted that Scotland and Wales will pay for the IVF impregnation of a surrogate mother.

A well kept secret I think.

Surrogacy on the NHS
FannyCann · 04/05/2020 23:52

Link to full consultation paper. Screen grab from page 43

s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/lawcom-prod-storage-11jsxou24uy7q/uploads/2019/06/Surrogacy-consultation-paper.pdf

0v9c99f9g9d939d9f9g9h8h · 04/05/2020 23:53

It's a hot issue, yes, but it's very late in the day to decide it's not on. People have spent the last decade growing accustomed to it. I remember a very similar Mumsnet thread years ago and it seemed out of date then. You're not doing anything nearly as significant as people who have a different view... Meanwhile lots of surrogates are having babies. I'm not sure you could turn the tide now. Was my point.

FannyCann · 05/05/2020 07:59

Gestational surrogacy puts two women at significant risk of harm - the egg "donor" and the surrogate mother. Donor oocyte pregnancies are three times more likely to be affected by preeclampsia, raised blood pressure, gestational diabetes, premature birth and other complications.
The NHS should NOT be funding harm to healthy women.
Post CV the NHS and public finances are going to be stretched thin as never before.
Paying for surrogacy is a luxury it cannot afford.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26627731/

FannyCann · 05/05/2020 08:01

Another discussion of health risks.

www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2019/05/52239/

Al1Langdownthecleghole · 05/05/2020 08:35

Side wards are allocated on clinical need. Commissioning parents are not a clinical need.

Why am I not amazed that a campaign that would in effect prioritise commissioning parents over women who have given birth is led by two men?

OhHolyJesus · 05/05/2020 08:47

Ok Ov9. I guess you're saying the horse has bolted. I get it, and maybe like you say, it is it to late, but it's a bit like the GRA for me.

Once you become aware of certain 'injustices', if that's the right word, you can always overturn them. Look at the CPS and the 14 year old.

As the laws are being review with the proposals seeking to relax existing laws it seems like the right time review the entire industry.

A documentary I saw yesterday (I was rather overloading on this subject yesterday!) an American lawyer was pro-surrogacy but was calling for a regulatory body. It's insane to me that there are no checks and balances in place, like with adoption, after all we are talking about children here. And that's only one element but clearly central to surrogacy. Or at least it should be, about the child I mean, and not the CPs or the SM.

If you wanted to have a child and provide a safe and loving home, I think you should welcome those checks and balances for surrogacy.

This thread is about NHS funding it though, so I won't take it off topic...that's why I asked about the home births, although that would have even fewer checks in place obviously.

OhHolyJesus · 05/05/2020 09:23

No Al1 it's not surprising. Ross and Chris pay into the NHS so they want their money's worth (I don't think they understand what the NHS is there for...)

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/05/04/scotland-gay-couple-surrogacy-nhs-ross-chris-muller-edinburgh/

Text to save the click traffic - my bolding (how can you be hired if you're not paid?)

Ross and Chris Muller, who live in Edinburgh, met in 2009 and married in 2017. They always wanted to start a family together and initially looked at adoption before settling on surrogacy.

The couple were shocked when they discovered the enormous cost of private surrogacy — so, they asked the NHS to help make their wish come true, the Daily Record reports. Ross and Chris said they were originally denied funded surrogacy by the NHS Scotland because they are a male same-sex couple.

“We had to keep pushing on that door and it was new to the hospital so they hadn’t done this before,” Ross said.

“That’s when they told us that we would be the first in Scotland to go through this.”

A surrogate from Cambridge was hired and eight embryos were created from Ross’s friends eggs and his sperm. Finally, an embryo was transferred into the surrogate in November of last year.

Just 10 days later, she took a pregnancy test and Facetimed the couple to show them the positive result. Ross and Chris were “over the moon”.

“I think a lot of same-sex couples, male and female, don’t know that this exists, like we didn’t until we found out about it,” Ross said.

“Adoption, as amazing as it is, shouldn’t always be the way that same-sex couples go and the NHS does have an open door because we’ve gone through it.”

Ross added: “A lot has changed since what we went through – the forms don’t say mother and father, they say parent A and B – it’s little things like that. I think it will be a lot easier for people to go down this path if they want to.”

Because the process was funded by the NHS, the couple did not have to pay a penny. They are now expecting a baby boy in August.

They believe they would have paid £45,000 or more if they had opted for private surrogacy.

“The NHS has done everything from start to finish pretty much. We were prepared (to go private) but then we thought, ‘Actually we pay in like everyone else, why wouldn’t we get something out?'” Ross said.
Rules on same-sex NHS surrogacy vary across UK.
NHS Scotland previously had a “blanket ban” on funding any treatment that involved the use of a surrogate.

That changed more than two years ago when the Scottish government voted in favour of allowing anybody — regardless of sexuality or gender — to access fertility treatment.

A spokesperson for the Holyrood confirmed last year that surrogacy for male same-sex couples would be funded following the rule change.

Publicly funded surrogacy is significantly more complicated in England, where 200 clinical commissioning groups set their own rules for eligibility.

In Northern Ireland, IVF is only offered to women with demonstrated fertility problems.

Meanwhile, the NHS in Wales offers fertility treatment to gay male couples, but has a policy that says: “Surrogacy IVF will only be provided where no other fertility treatment options are available” and only for “medical reasons”.

Aside from funding, would-be parents are also affected by laws which mean the surrogate remains the child’s legal guardian until a parental or adoption order is signed.

While hopeful parents can sign a surrogacy agreement, these are not enforceable by law. Campaigners say that commercial surrogacy combine with enforceable surrogacy agreements would solve this issue, however it is currently against the law in the UK to pay a surrogate anything more than reasonable expenses.

Lordfrontpaw · 05/05/2020 09:23

A baby is not a human right. Parents who can’t naturally conceive - a bit of help. Parents who have absolutely zero chance of conceiving even with a magic wand - come off it.

The ultimate consumerism. Why is the NHS spending money on this?

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