Ultra-Orthodox Judaism: Transgender

[OhHolyJesus]

I stumbled upon this, after looking up some info on Orthodox Jews after another thread piqued my interest.

This court case related to 5 children being raised in ultra-orthodox North Manchester Charedi Jewish community where the father is transgender and the children lie with the mother. As a result of direct contact with the father, the children are ostracised from their community and the mother struggles because, and I quote the case notes "Transgender is extremely alien to the community and against religious law."

I won't pretend I'm not fascinated by this clash or conflicting issues around religion, trans widows 'status' (if that' the right word), family break up and a father's rights to his see his children, and ultimately and most importantly the children.

How much does a child choose a religion and how much can they be expected to have contact with their father (who has changed and is no longer the father they thought they knew) or denied contact because of the religion they have been brought up in? I think, for me, they are being forced to chose between the life they know with their mother, their friends, their school and their religious community and wider family or their father who's need to be his 'authentic self' has created this situation and I can only imagine what level of resentment that causes. It's very complex, I haven't read the whole thing yet but this stood out...

From the opening Rabbi comments:

"The result will be that community members will expect the family of the transgender person to limit their contact with him or her as far as possible. If the family of the transgender person nevertheless seeks, or indeed is forced, to maintain contact with that person, they will open themselves up to very serious consequences indeed. The families around them will effectively ostracise them by not allowing their children to have more than the most limited contact with that family's children. The impact on the family in such circumstances in terms of social isolation will be devastating."

and

"He … asserted that under the Torah and in reality a person is considered to have a choice, albeit a difficult one, as to whether they become transgender. If they do, they choose to place themselves outside the embrace of the community. In Torah law, to be gay or transgender is to be a sinner. Even though it may be looked on with compassion, and some people may extend the hand of friendship, that does not alter its unacceptability...Young people cannot deal with these issues without undermining their faith. There is too much of a conflict to understand. There is therefore an obligation to protect the children from finding things out that are likely to damage them and cause them pain and suffering, likely to damage their growth and spiritual well-being. By educating children in the way of the Torah, they are brought up as upright people."

Either way the kids lose out.

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/2164.html

Just opened the link and interesting that the first intervener is Stonewall!

I've now skimmed the whole thing and I my overriding reaction is total sympathy for the wife and children. It's bad enough to put them through this (and reading the Trans Widows threads has given me an insight into how it must have been for them), but with the added bonus of them being ostracized from their community, and the kids being shunned.

Utter bastard

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/20/transgender-woman-ends-bid-to-see-her-ultra-orthodox-jewish-children

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/j-v-b-and-the-children.pdf

Paragraphs 19 and 20 are prudent

Different case here, but interesting that this was on BBC news site this week www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-51928077
I do wonder how much of the restrictive upbringing had an influence on this person's decisions.

Interesting links Judith thanks for those, what a sad case, I have yet to read the whole thing but my sympathies instinctively were for the children and the mother, the husband/transwoman...I don't know, I imagine personal struggle with sex-based stereotypes as expectations of men in that community (and goodness knows how what the women have to put up with!) but still, my overriding feelings were not for him.

In Judaism, as in secular life, there are choices you can make. Nobody can ever have every single thing they want. Sometimes you have to compromise. The father of these children choose to sacrifice the children, rather than compromise. Alternative choices were available to this father.

BTW, that report is not strictly accurate. Being gay or trans is not forbidden in Judaism. What is forbidden is acting upon those feelings.

I didnt envy the judge there.

Caught between two intolerant religions. Poor kids.

Me neither. An impossible decision for the judge, really.

My feeling is that as a parent, you don't put the effects of these things on your kids. In some cases that can't work, but I can't see how there wasn't some way the father could have reframed things for himself that would have taken the pressure off the family. It would be better to agree to not see them hard as it would be.

But a bad outcome no matter what happens really.

That's interesting Pikes, do you think it would have been acceptable for a husband to cross-dress secretly at home or would that he considered acting upon those feelings?

I only ask you said it was forbidden as such. I wonder where the line is drawn. I've always found religious texts, any religious texts, almost deliberately vague and I do so enjoy firm, clear boundaries, maybe that's why I've rejected religion!

What Pikespeaked said

I am an orthodox jewish woman with 6 children .

A long time ago - 20 years ago to be exact so before transgender issues were really known and out - I supported a friend through a similar process .

I want to protect her anonymity so will five brief details but the situation was she married an English jewish man ( she was from overseas). Both were very deep jntellectual people - widely read, measured and professional . They had one small child the same age as my dd1.

Whilst I struggled in my marriage and my friend used to help and advise , their own seemed rock solid and model ( husband v helpful , both educating their dd in a balanced , warm and caring manner ), he was respectful of her needs and interests , changed nappies did night shifts etc , cooked, cleaned etc .

One day we had a conversation I will never forget where she told me their marriage was dead. Emptyand devoid of anything - even argument . After a few days she confided in me that her dh thought he was gay and had married her to try to “ overcome it . “ That she could accept and she started to whisper of divorce and how awful it would be for her dd.
Then one night she came round and between heartbreaking sobs she told me her dh was leaving her to goand live in Holland where he was seeking treatment to change into a woman. My exact words” what ? Is this a joke ?” I don’t think it as widely known about or possible then. She was mortified and furious - how would she tel dd that dh has become a woman .
She left Britain v quickly after that and tried to sever links with him living abroad for a while . Eventually he found her and dd was forced to see him . My friend said her then 6 year old dd cried for hours saying daddy’s scary and I don’t like him . By this time he’d taken some hormonal treatment and his voice was different , he’d lost his beard and was dressing like a woman . He saw her dd a few times after that until my brave friend unable to stand the pain and distress of her dd and her own horror went underground , changed their names and vanished .
The last I heard was 13 years ago . She had to cut ties with everyone to vanish successfully and that included me .
If you are out there and reading this R, I miss you

Oh Lisa that is awful. Your poor friend. 20 years, I'm so sorry for you too that you lost contact, although I suppose I understand why, but how it cost her to do that. A necessary sacrifice but it shouldn't have to be that way.

Mumsnet has a wide reach, maybe she is around, maybe she will find you again and if not then I hope she is settled, safe and her husband never found them. Just hideous I'm so sorry.

Thank you - your words are very kind . Retelling the story made me tearful . Her dd would be 23 today . So certainly able to make her own choices .
I would love to be in contact with her again too - as you say , you never know

That is such a sad and painful story. I hope your friend and her child have found peace and healing.

OhHolyJesus, the Torah is quite clear and straightforward on the behaviours. There are IIRC three separate verses that say something along the lines of "A man shall not put on the clothes of a woman", "A man shall not lie with another man as with a woman", and "A man shall not spill his seed upon the ground". Nowhere does it say that such men do not or must not exist.

Everything else has evolved through commentary and debate by respected rabbis over hundreds of years. As with every religion (and neo-religion) and ideology, the more fundamentalist groups interpret more rigidly and more controllingly. Some fundamentalist groups might say "Do it in private so that your sin does not influence others to sin", most would say "Do not do it at all, as one sin leads to another." Naturally a prohibition against doing something will become a disgust for that thing.

It's awful when a person goes against their nature in order to try to be what someone else wants them to be, as in the case of a gay man marrying a woman. Fundamentalist religion is not the only cause, though. Wasn't there a married TV presenter who came out as gay recently ?

I hope I do not come across as defending fundamentalism. I do not agree with it. I am just trying to explain some of the reasoning.

Thanks Pikes I find this fascinating. Thank for you sharing that, the Torah is indeed very clear and I see why there is a need for interpretation and again how this influences actions and decisions.

So many struggles and competing issues. I also don't envy the judge in reaching a conclusion. Religion and gender reassignment are two protected characteristics battling against each other.

I will have a think about how I feel about that.

And on the flip side, in Reform Judaism, transgenderism is positively encouraged.

It's a huge dilemma for me. I'm a Reform Jew, because I believe in women's full participation in Torah service and worship. However, I feel that our Chief Rabbi's tub-thumping is harmful wokery.

However, I feel for my female Orthodox friends too, due to the strictures placed on women.

For me, it boils down to the fact that I believe we are made "b'tselem Elohim" - in the image of G-d. Therefore, what we are is enough already - Reform, Orthodox, or whatever else. No need to transition to (or from) anything.

I feel that our Chief Rabbi's tub-thumping is harmful wokery.

Is this the Rabbi with the non binary child?
eachother.org.uk/we-need-to-have-more-difficult-conversations-senior-rabbi-laura-janner-klausner/

Yes. Her.

Personally I think she's lost her way. It's one thing to love your child unconditionally and accept their choices even if they contradict your values and your common sense, but it is quite another to actively support and promote something that is entirely contrary to the faith which you represent, not to mention harmful.

It was interesting that in the Court of Appeal determination, they spend a lot of time focusing on the idea that the initial judge hadn't tried hard enough to see if some accommodation could be made. Total wishful thinking, There was no way that particular section of the community would've accepted the children if having contact with a trans parent and they said as much, however convenient it might've been for all concerned if they'd compromise. Explicitly confront them with the possibility that their behaviour might be discriminatory?! Yeah, that'd totes work. I'd have had more respect for the C of A in this one had they left that pretence out altogether and fully grasped the bull by the horns.

I should say that I did practice law in the vicinity of this geographical area for a while and have some professional familiarity with the community, though I'm not Jewish myself.

I have a bee in my bonnet about the lawyer for the husband Pubs, the husband obviously chose a trans friendly rather than a Jew friendly lawyer. I suppose there might have been an issue in finding a lawyer as it's a tricky case.

With your experience in the area, what are your thoughts?

(I found out today it is the same lawyer defending Freddie McConnell and he is involved in a surrogacy case I stumbled across.)

Personally I think she's lost her way. It's one thing to love your child unconditionally and accept their choices even if they contradict your values and your common sense, but it is quite another to actively support and promote something that is entirely contrary to the faith which you represent, not to mention harmful.

This seems to be a common scenario. And I think more with mothers than with fathers though that may just reflect who speaks more publicly about it. But the sense that it is possible to have a good relationship with your child and really love them while also not agreeing with or supporting something they do seems to have been lost somewhat from modern parenting.
People feel unable to do it, and more than once where there is an issue like this in a religious community I have seen secular people, or more secularly influenced members of the community say that this shows that there is a sort of inbuilt lack of love. Which is confusing to me as it seems to me to be more demanding of love to be required to love people one has real disagreements with.
My sense of this is that it's not separate from the larger problems our culture and politics are having with dealing with different ideas.

It was interesting that in the Court of Appeal determination, they spend a lot of time focusing on the idea that the initial judge hadn't tried hard enough to see if some accommodation could be made. Total wishful thinking, There was no way that particular section of the community would've accepted the children if having contact with a trans parent and they said as much

Yes this is completely right. Sadly no amount of ideological purity from the Court of Appeal could change the reality of the children's lives. This is the very brief judgment that explains what happened after the Court of Appeal: www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWFC/HCJ/2020/3.html The whole thing had a tragic impact on these poor children. The judge says:

'It was clear that the father had not been able to devise a plan for the children which did not involve catastrophic impact on their lives. These are children who have little contact with the outside world and are, for example, not permitted to watch television or use the internet. Each of the children, but particularly the older ones, were traumatised by what had happened, and each was ill-equipped to understand their situation.'

and

'None of the children is prepared to meet with the father. The attitudes of the community remain, as they were bound to, unchanged. The intervening period has not been without incident, and the children’s privacy has, unbeknown to all but the eldest children, been compromised on social media. This must now cease.'

The firms they both used initially are in Liverpool, which is interesting given that there are lots of good family law firms in Greater Manchester, and it's not hard to find one with experience representing Haredi Jewish clients. The firm I worked at isn't there anymore, but we did used to get a lot of clients from that community with sensitive family law matters, to the extent that I was told to read up on gets (Jewish religious divorce related) in my first week as a trainee. And I know of other firms in Manchester who were the same. I think people tended to go with recommendations from people in the community. One of my colleagues would go to the Beth Din occasionally.

I'm not really familiar with either firm but I don't think it's surprising that the father wanted a solicitor perceived as trans friendly. If anything that's probably more niche than Jewish friendly, in North Manchester... but then they went to Liverpool. Maybe they both felt more comfortable away from the community. There isn't much of a Haredi presence on Merseyside. Or maybe my old firm would've been involved if they were still there!

Btw thanks for the 2020 judgement tess, I hadn't read that one. Such a sad situation.