Ultra-Orthodox Judaism: Transgender

[OhHolyJesus]

I stumbled upon this, after looking up some info on Orthodox Jews after another thread piqued my interest.

This court case related to 5 children being raised in ultra-orthodox North Manchester Charedi Jewish community where the father is transgender and the children lie with the mother. As a result of direct contact with the father, the children are ostracised from their community and the mother struggles because, and I quote the case notes "Transgender is extremely alien to the community and against religious law."

I won't pretend I'm not fascinated by this clash or conflicting issues around religion, trans widows 'status' (if that' the right word), family break up and a father's rights to his see his children, and ultimately and most importantly the children.

How much does a child choose a religion and how much can they be expected to have contact with their father (who has changed and is no longer the father they thought they knew) or denied contact because of the religion they have been brought up in? I think, for me, they are being forced to chose between the life they know with their mother, their friends, their school and their religious community and wider family or their father who's need to be his 'authentic self' has created this situation and I can only imagine what level of resentment that causes. It's very complex, I haven't read the whole thing yet but this stood out...

From the opening Rabbi comments:

"The result will be that community members will expect the family of the transgender person to limit their contact with him or her as far as possible. If the family of the transgender person nevertheless seeks, or indeed is forced, to maintain contact with that person, they will open themselves up to very serious consequences indeed. The families around them will effectively ostracise them by not allowing their children to have more than the most limited contact with that family's children. The impact on the family in such circumstances in terms of social isolation will be devastating."

and

"He … asserted that under the Torah and in reality a person is considered to have a choice, albeit a difficult one, as to whether they become transgender. If they do, they choose to place themselves outside the embrace of the community. In Torah law, to be gay or transgender is to be a sinner. Even though it may be looked on with compassion, and some people may extend the hand of friendship, that does not alter its unacceptability...Young people cannot deal with these issues without undermining their faith. There is too much of a conflict to understand. There is therefore an obligation to protect the children from finding things out that are likely to damage them and cause them pain and suffering, likely to damage their growth and spiritual well-being. By educating children in the way of the Torah, they are brought up as upright people."

Either way the kids lose out.

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/2164.html

I referred to a book 'All who go do not return', by Shulem Deen. He describes his process of leaving (loss of faith) one of the ultra-orthodox branches (Skverer), leaving behind his five children and wife.
Were he to stay in contact, he would have done active damage to his children within that community. It's extremely sad reading.
There is no possible way, for his children's sake if nothing else, this person could have remained in contact with his children, unless the whole family left the community.

Damnit 'their children', sorry, that was a mistake.

Mucklowe - I feel exactly the same. Left orthodoxy and felt at home at Reform. Reform is naturally left wing, but it has been sucked into left wing Trans ideology which I just do not feel comfortable with. In the USA now it’s the same too, with female American Rabbis on twitter promoting the Trans agenda.

Frankie - I don't think Reform Judaism is naturally left-wing. Typically, judges/Tory politicians, etc joined the Reform in the UK because it was perceived as less "different" and therefore closer to the Anglican establishment. Ditto in the states it was considered to be closer to all-American values. Agree that Reform has become "woke" in the last 25 years, but then so has the Church...

Strangelookingparasite - I read that book as well. I think Shulem's cocaine habit and total inability to look after the kids may have been a barrier to his contact with them.

As I said on the other thread, in a way, I find it odd deciding to be trans if you're an ultra-Orthodox Jewish male as it's really pretty fun being male in that community. At least compared to being female.

But I guess maybe the transgender thing in these cases (maybe in many cases, but more obviously here) is about more than the lure of living the same life but wearing women's clothes or in a women's role - it's really about the lure of rebelling and escaping from the community and your everyday humdrum life altogether.

These men know there is zero chance they will be able to live as women in their community and that's not what they're after anyway - what they want is to escape that community altogether and move to the world of freedom, colour and glamour that women's clothing represents.

You wouldn't see them in dowdy below-knee-length skirts, sheitels (wigs), modest blouses etc. They don't want to dress like their wives, mothers, sisters. They want rather to wear bright lipsticks, trousers, tight tops - the kind of thing that would get ultra Orthodox women thrown out of the community let alone men!

And I bet they don't fantasise about being in charge of the childcare or cooking for their large families that their ultra Orthodox mothers or wives will do day in, day out, or sitting behind a mechitzah (curtain) in synagogue while the men dance, sing, lead the services etc.

As always, they want the fantasy free-from-responsibility life that transwomen enjoy but that bears no relationship at all to the life of an actual woman.

I have yet to see a man decide to become trans so that he can wear old tracksuit bottoms, do most of the housework and childcare and get paid less and talked over more. :)

So in that context, blaming the community for not 'accepting' them is a bit hypocritical - they did this knowing they wouldn't be accepted and wanting the freedom outside the community the break would bring.

It's a shame they can't feel they can just be themselves and wear what they like and go where they want - but I guess the conditioning is strong and the community glue is sticky.

I can certainly understand the pull of the ultra-Orthodox world, especially for a man. It's a very warm, embracing culture.

Such an interesting thread - thank you to those sharing their ecperiences. One thing I noted looking at that judgement is there seems to be a common 'theme' that runs through so many of these cases:

It is plain that the father, before she left the home, was not sufficiently sensitive to the children’s needs and the fact that they would need time to understand what had happened

The intervening period has not been without incident, and the children’s privacy has, unbeknown to all but the eldest children, been compromised on social media. This must now cease

I have also made specific orders restricting the father’s campaign on social media

Yet again the children's interests and privacy appear to have been secondary to the wishes of a transitioning adult. How often have we seen this?

I think Shulem's cocaine habit and total inability to look after the kids may have been a barrier to his contact with them.

Samg76, where did you find out those things?

xxyz

You know, I've begun to think that the idea is that these men are constrained because they have some sort of preference for women's clothing etc is kind of a red herring. Clothing and make up and so on are just clothing and make up and so on. In many cultures they don't differer much or at all between men and women. And in the end they are just clothes and people may like certain types of clothing but how far would anyone really go just to wear one bit of clothes over another?

In these kinds of conservative communities I suspect many of the men who end up doing this may actually be gay, and for either personal reasons or because the culture is very focused on marriage without much room for celibates, they coping by retreating into a vision of themselves as actually women. So not really about the clothes, or whether it's nice to be a man vs a woman. At least that's the pattern I've seen among older transexuals - they were gay men and all the ones I've met struggled with that in some way.

Yes, that's a good point, Goosefoot.

Abby Stein, the transwoman in this article www.timesofisrael.com/hasidic-rabbi-who-cant-pray-the-girl-away-transitions-to-female-activist/ and the BBC article, is clearly gay.

You also see it a lot with those from strictly Christian homes - internalised homophobia make it easier for them to see themselves as being really a member of the opposite sex, than accept being gay.

This may explain why so many transgender activists are virulently homophobic, eg all the hatred against the LGB Alliance. Also all the hatred for gay people and especially lesbians within Stonewall. The internalised homophobia is what made them decide to be trans in the first place - it's not coincidental or accidental, it's the cause of them deciding to be trans in the first place.

Sadly, this exactly why the B and LGB make terrible bedfellows - they should never be put together as becoming trans is so often conversion therapy for gay people by another name.

Although to go back to my previous point, Abby does talk a lot about being a rebel.

And is now a media star, appearing in everything.

So I think the desire to rebel, and to have a glamorous and varied life, may also play a part - more fun than being a cookie cutter ultra Orthodox man, like all the others.

Sorry, previous post should have said the T and LGB.

Jenni Murray on Woman's Hour yesterday talking to the author, Deborah Feldman.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000hpcp

This may explain why so many transgender activists are virulently homophobic, eg all the hatred against the LGB Alliance. Also all the hatred for gay people and especially lesbians within Stonewall. The internalised homophobia is what made them decide to be trans in the first place - it's not coincidental or accidental, it's the cause of them deciding to be trans in the first place.

I'm not sure - you may be right, but my sense is that the homophobic types in these instances are mainly the ones who are heterosexual - transwomen who consider themselves lesbians for example.

Gay men who take this route have generally seemed to me to be more likely to see themselves in organisations like Stonewall in so far as their interests are the same as gay men's.

But I don't know if that's more an impression than a reality, it's not like I know huge numbers of gay male transwomen.

Gay men can be homophobic, just as women can be misogynistic. They may not be aware that the attitude has been so deeply ingrained in them by their society.