“Women basically already have equal rights in the West”

[Ethelfleda]

I’ve heard this statement from a few people over the past year or so, always from men.
I know they’re wrong but I so rarely know how to tell them they’re wrong.
I want to tell them they’re wrong without patronising them because it is my belief that once you do this, you alienate your audience and they won’t ever come around to your way of thinking.

What do you say to this statement??

Enshrined in law we may well have equal rights
Although in many cases the law needs to discriminate in our favour to achieve that...so we have the right to single sex spaces to enable us to fulfil our right to fully participate in society ...
Enshrined in practise we certainly don't which is why things like laws around pay gap reporting are needed, why many people feel AWS are needed

I've had very liberal women say this and shut me down when challenged. Very annoying. Interesting to see the responses.

This is a bit like saying because we have a theft act enshrined in law, theft is no longer a problem.

Equal rights doesn’t mean equality. There is still a gender pay gap. Household tasks and child care are not divided equally. What has complicated things is that there are areas - eg access to higher education where women are now the majority - but overall women and men’s opportunities are still not the same.

As midgebabe says, we legally do have equal rights. Unfortunately real life has quite some way to go to catch up with this, and yes, siring has it.

Domestic violence, rape - stats on these are fairly stark. One in 5 women experience sexual assualt/rape in E&W (2017 stats afair). Almost one in 3 women experience dv (refuge stat).

Issues relating to reproductive health, child-bearing and raising and care are huge. (I'm talking as a whole, not about individuals). I would say the having and raising of kids is probably the biggest impact issue that women deal with, in general. Until I became a mother I don't think I could have appreciated the life-changing impact this would have on career, time, life, everything (yes, I was naive and ignorant).

Some of the issues that affect women are not really addressable directly by law, either. Things like general fear of male violence, sexual harassment, social pressure to look a certain way, always be uncomfortable with your body, etc. These can be quite complex to discuss, if someone isn't interested in seeing your point of view I'm not quite sure how you'd get them to listen.

That 'be a lady' video recently seemed to give some men a bit of a glimpse into social pressures women face, though not sure if it really conveyed the relentless, incessant, deeply held beliefs about women's worth and how women should act/be/look.

I agree that there's probably not a whole huge point in trying to discuss the issue with people that are invested in disbelieving/disproving it. Realisation may come - if it ever does - through things like #metoo, which did seem to really shock a lot of men - and I suppose in turn I was shocked that men didn't realise the extent of sexual violence/assault etc. It's such a background issue for me, as a woman, it's always been there, I kind of forget, I suppose, that for men it is likely to be different, they just won't experience the same threats/fears/hassle/approaches that a woman does, in so many ways and on so many levels, all her life.

I would say that films, art, books, are maybe an easier way of conveying an experience than a 'discussion'. That way maybe someone can empathise and see through someone else's eyes more easily.

Too often, discussion becomes a competitive thing, and I also find some men tend to argue to win the argument, not to get to the bottom of the matter. Once I learned about this tendency and worked out how to argue in the same manner, I found I could win those arguments, but it's tedious hard work and a bit shit as it just becomes a pissing contest, rather than an actual discussion where both parties are pursuing and exploring ideas.

I think that, before wading into a discussion with someone on this topic, it's important to reach common ground or, at least, understand what you both consider to be 'rights'. Though they do not directly align, there will be a lot of commonality between what a person considers to be 'rights' and their political leanings. You'll also find that some will be mutually exclusive to others.

Equal rights doesn’t mean equality. There is still a gender pay gap. Household tasks and child care are not divided equally. What has complicated things is that there are areas - eg access to higher education where women are now the majority - but overall women and men’s opportunities are still not the same

That's because equal rights do no, and probably never will, equate to equal outcomes, nor to the disappearance of differences between individuals; between men & women; between different demographics & social groups. Equality in law does not translate to shared value systems, preferences or choices in life either.

As long as women have children, there will will always be differences in approach to a variety of life situations...I think it is kind of inevitable.Even in spite of people wishing it were not so. Not all, but many women, do like to be in charge at home.......supervising how well, or not, their male partner does, or does not, do the housework, the childcare etc.

Also, after having children it is generally women who prefer to give up work, or go part time......if they are in a position to be able to afford to. Many women think they'll be desperate to get back to work, but find they don't really want to...or their outlook on their life changes after having had children. It does for men too, butI think it is more instinctive for women - certainly when the children are small/pre-school.

Obviously these are generalisations, but I think they hold pretty true. And I know as a woman who had my children young, it is often very difficult to get fully into stride & settled in a career after you've had children.And if you take more career breaks and work part-time then this is likely to have a negative effect on your earnings or possibilities for promotion.

Obviously, though - there is still a gender pay gap even when all circumstances really are are equal - in many instances - and clearly this shouldn't be the case.

The statement that women have equal rights in the West is correct and true. We do have equal rights. But sexism (sex discrimination which causes social inequalities) still exists.

It’s similar to ethnic minorities, they too have equal rights, but due to racism, there are indisputable social inequalities that still exist.

In this sense, yes feminism has accomplished its original goal of equal rights for women (in the West). But that fight continues in other parts of the world. In the West, feminism is still important as a civil movement though to eventually erase sexism.

In the West, feminism is still important as a civil movement though to eventually erase sexism

As long as there are two sexes there will be sexism to some degree or other...because inevitably women's reproductive role and the roles that tend to follow on from that will always remain so. Of course if by sexism you mean women being treated like shit - with no rights, no power etc...then obviously that's not acceptable.

The women's movement has long been geared towards achieving equal legal and civil rights...now largely achieved, certainly in the West....As I see it, differences now need to be acknowledged too......without having to worry that being seen as different, or making different choices is seen as being lesser or of less value.

I know this is controversial to say........but outside of us all being human beings...are we really trying to say there are no differences between men and women at all? Are we saying all differences are purely social constructions and not related in anyway to biology/biochemistry? I know there are many differences and a wide spectrum of expression within each sex, as well as between the sexes.......but biology/hormones must play a part too.

For me examples are really the way to go

If you’re a professional man, you can reasonably expect to find a female partner who’s happy to give up her career to be your helpmeet. Hence, men can focus on their careers. Women cannot find men who want to be their helpmeets.

We may not be saying there are no differences , and indeed many of the physical differences are ignored ( see recent PPE thread )

but many of the differences are completely over egged and used by many to justify the unjustifiable.

See various studies on "blind" job applications/orchestra interviews/ student lecturer reviews/ git hun code evaluations etc etc that show that people believe that women are less capable and hence automatically mark them down yet the sex differences in perceived capability magically disappears once the sex of the person is obscured

If you’re a professional man, you can reasonably expect to find a female partner who’s happy to give up her career to be your helpmeet

And not all of that is necessarily driven by socially construction, either.
Throughout nature females tend towards being the nest builders.....and the one that sits on the eggs, or tends the young. And many women actually enjoy keeping house and home......and have an eye for domestic detail that few men do.Obviously there are big down-sides to being primarily a home-maker........but it does have its rewards too ( even if not financial).

When it comes down to it, I think we all speak out from our own set of circumstances; from the lives we've led; the choices we've made; and from what we've learned via those experiences. For some women financial independence is going to be the biggest driver...for others it will be different things.

See various studies on "blind" job applications/orchestra interviews/ student lecturer reviews/ git hun code evaluations etc etc that show that people believe that women are less capable and hence automatically mark them down yet the sex differences in perceived capability magically disappears once the sex of the person is obscured

That is certainly true...and that is an example of prejudice that we've all encountered I'm sure.........However there are multiple prejudices that we all hold, which I've come to the conclusion, are inevitable purely down to differences between people.

Whether those differences be geographical/national/regional, class - based ( perceptions of people based on your perception of their social background/ maybe their accent etc); religious, cultural, sex based.....

I know I'm playing devil's advocate - I can't help it - but I've come to a point in my life at which I tend to see these types of conflict as to some extent inevitable....At least we do have recourse to law and equal legal and civil rights, even if just in theory.

I can't se a time when the world is populated by happy, smiley people all being completely equitable towards each other; without personal shadow, ambition, or any of the darker human emotions.

justathought

The point im making is that if one wants to be a professional woman, it is a harder slog than to be a professional man. There is not equality of opportunity because one pretty much cannot get a “support spouse.” This is especially difficult once children come into the picture. Both men and women want children in approximately equal proportion. Yet the number of men actually wanting to be the primary caretaker is vanishingly small.

Obviously many women find being a homemaker very rewarding. But Currently young boys who may have similar yearnings at a young age currently have that quickly beaten out of them by other men/boys as that would make them “sissies.” Meanwhile girls generally are allowed to keep that dream going. It would surely be great for all if we could get the message across to male children that nurturing is a respectable occupation. At least then women would have a shot to have both career and family.

Also, given you know prejudices against women exist, how can you be sure women ending up primary carers is always their choice, versus a compromise that was made because for some reason (prejudice) they just didn’t get quite as many promotions as their male partner?

As is generally the case I really feel that the Devil ought to consider hiring more convincing advocates.

One word .. Coming from a true lady my self .. We do not have any rights for pete sake ! We're dishwashers

We do not have any rights for pete sake ! We're dishwashers

Oh dear, my husband washes the dishes, poor dear.

Household tasks and child care are not divided equally

Then that is for women to sort out with their partners. It's back to this idea of "wife- work" and expecting society magically to change but doing nothing individually to stop being a martyr.

If you’re a professional man, you can reasonably expect to find a female partner who’s happy to give up her career to be your helpmeet

Really?

Interesting responses so far - thank you!

Yes in theory everyone has equal human rights in the UK.

However, in order to access those rights, some groups need specific services and protections. That is the point of the separate categories in the Equality Act.

This is always going to be an evolving issue, e.g. availability of birth control during the current pandemic is an issue that affects women very differently to men.

Meanwhile girls generally are allowed to keep that dream going. It would surely be great for all if we could get the message across to male children that nurturing is a respectable occupation. At least then women would have a shot to have both career and family

I never grew up dreaming of children and marriage...... I've had children because the men I've had in my life desired and wanted them (as you suggest many men do want home & family); and because very often the romance, and the impulse, behind male/female relationships leads to the desire for children.

However, once born, my instinctive responses, I'd suggest, were different to the father's responses - more primal.....and this led to my feelings of needing and wanting control, and to 'oversee' the whole process in a way that men don't seem to feel in quite the same way.

Even the most nurturing of men ( and I've personally been fortunate to have a nurturing father, and other nurturing men in my life) don't have the same instinctive responses as a mother - generally speaking.

But, yes, in an ideal world men and women, mothers and fathers might feel the same, and both want the same balance between career and family. But There are other ways, of course, outside of a career, that a person can fulfil their potentials and talents and skills...through hobbies, through social activity, community service etc.... if fortunate enough to be able to.....not having to go out to a full time job can be quite liberating.Some people hate retirement, for example, while others love it.

Also, given you know prejudices against women exist, how can you be sure women ending up primary carers is always their choice

Because often life makes your choices for you, and circumstances dictate. I don't think you can legislate for every eventuality.

Also, given you know prejudices against women exist, how can you be sure women ending up primary carers is always their choice, versus a compromise that was made because for some reason (prejudice) they just didn’t get quite as many promotions as their male partner? hmm

i had my first child age 19......Career and promotions were not an issue.....although for some I appreciate they are. That is why I think we can all only speak from our own perspective & experience.

Having children does change things for women, more than it does for men......some of that is social, and some of that is not.