Sex Work & Feminism

[peaches2290]

Can you uphold feminist beliefs/values while working in the sex industry?
I am an exotic dancer (21) working in nightclubs. I personally am not super into feminism, I simply don't know much about it. However, the topic came up between me and a male friend. His point of view is that "being a stripper does not support feminist values because woman are doing something that the men want that is objectifying us". I disagree with his opinion because (having worked in the industry first-hand) I know that we are allowed, if not encouraged, to decline services to men if they are being rude/disrespectful/excessively drunk, etc. All business transactions consist of exchanging money, services, or items so what is the difference between me working my day job at a spa and giving a man a pedicure vs me working my night job and giving a man a lap dance? In both cases I am providing a service to men or women in exchange for money. In both cases I am also maintaining my morals and self-respect. I believe it's possible to work in nightclubs and be a feminist as many girls I work with are. From what I understand about it, feminism isn't about one sex being above the other, it's about equality and equality is present in the nightclubs whether we're naked or not. I may be incorrect which is why I wanted to pose the question here and get opinions from others.

For me it's like, what sexual services are available to women? Not many. There are thousands if not millions of women who go along sexually unsatisfied. How is that equality?

Regardless of anything else, any man telling any woman that she can't be a feminist is a wanker.

The government should fund sex training schools for men who would then go out and service unsatisfied women all around the country. There should be research grants to find out how to optimise female pleasure.

You know, it’s not a true/false exam - there’s no right way of doing feminism. We’re not here to rubber stamp your feminist passport. If this is an issue which genuinely concerns you, do some investigation and decide what you think feminism is and how it aligns with your beliefs.

There’s no purity test for feminism - most of us who would fall ourselves feminist, will struggle on a day-to-day basis to balance our political beliefs against our need to pay the bills, get along with other people and survive in the world.

What that looks like will be different for every woman - you are the only person who can make that determination, and how you do that will change as your life changes; as you age; as you gain experience; as you learn more.

Feminism = wanting equal rights for men and women. I find it sad when women say they aren’t hugely feminist because it’s actually a very simple thing.
If it’s what you want to do and you’re getting paid for it I don’t see a problem. Yes you’re entertaining a man, but he’s also giving you something in return. The female body can be appreciated without it being sexist.
It’d be a different conversation if you were doing it for free.
Also, women can come to strip clubs and enjoy a dance off a female the sex industry isn’t there to solely please men so your friend is wrong.
If you believe in equality for men and women then you are a feminist and that’s a great thing, it’s odd how a man feels he can tell you what you’re doing doesn’t support feminism!

From what I understand about it, feminism isn't about one sex being above the other, it's about equality and equality is present in the nightclubs whether we're naked or not.

You are mistaken. What you are advocating is misogyny.
Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women. It was the backlash against Feminism in the 1980s that marketed feminism as a life style choice in compliance with the 5th rule of misogyny: Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." Anatole France

Liberal feminism is very keen to involve and support sex workers including stripers/cam girls etc.

One of the many slurs liberal feminists use again at people who hold different viewpoints is "SWERF" which stupidly stands for "Sex worker exclusionary radical feminist" and it is usually followed by "burn the witch" etc.

It's not true for the most part,as there isn't feminist on the planet who wants to ignore, exclude or make life hard(er) for sex workers. There ARE however many many who are critical of the industry, and rightly so. It perpetuates the notion that women are there to provide sexual gratification to men, and throwing notes at you in a nightclub that you have to bend over to pick up while being told to remove your clothes do they can wank at you is a disgusting display of misogyny, sorry, I'm sure you enjoy your work. It's not personal, women have always done it.

Also, who actually makes the money here?
You take home your pocket money, but the men running these clubs are cashing in big time, usually at the expense of poorer women some of whom are trafficked and give half of their warnings to their "keeper".

It's a vulgar industry built on the exploitation of women for the benefit of men.
I suppose it's possible to understand that AND work on the industry, as PP have said there aren't really specifications for being a feminist.

^against not again at

^earnings not warnings

Yes you can. Look up sexy positive feminism. Please don’t take your feminist ideas from men.

what is the difference between me working my day job at a spa and giving a man a pedicure vs me working my night job and giving a man a lap dance?

I think the easiest way to understand the power balance/oppression in this transaction is to ask the question “are the men doing it too?”
Are men lap dancing in nightclubs? No
Are men wearing burquas? No
Are 10 year old boys married off in some countries? No

So why? Why aren’t these things done to men/boys but are required or forced on women and girls? Why do men want lap dances but women don’t?

OP

If the "feminism" pleases men then it is called liberal feminism and it's a bit shit.

However,

If the "feminism" does not please men then it is called radical feminism and that is the sort of feminism you are likely to encounter on these pages. Mostly.

You can choose which type is best for you; it's a free country.

OP, even the feminists on this thread can't even agree what feminism is, so I wish you luck in getting a half decent response.

If we lived in a society free from misogyny and sexual abuse then I could imagine a world where men and women could offer lap dances in a liberated and empowered way. Unfortunately we live in a deeply sexist society where women are routinely sexually harassed, objectified or worse.

In my opinion strip clubs exacerbate these existing issues. They condone and encourage the idea that female sexuality can be bought and sold and that a woman's value is in her sex appeal. There's no reason to only pick on strip clubs though. I feel the same about the beauty industry (especially when it comes to Botox and plastic surgery), about celebrities posing naked in magazines, about TV shows such a Love Island etc.

Ignore the bloke who said "you can't be a feminist". You didn't create these issues and you don't need another bloke lecturing you about it. I would 100% recommend reading some second wave feminist literature on this kind of thing as there are brilliant women out there who can articulate this much better than I (or he) can.

I think what you are experiencing is a difference between something at an individual level and the same thing when viewed at a societal or class level

You feel in control and you get something of value back for your actions.

But what you probably can't see is how much your choices have been shaped by the society you are in
Liberal feminists will stop at the individual level. As long as you are happy and in control that's fine. Radical feminists like to look deeper and broader

At the society level , as others above have said, there is a clear difference between the availability and use of things like strip clubs for men and women, and any such differences tend to worry radical feminists . They are typically indicative of a society that is treating men and women differently, expecting different things from men and women, respecting different things in men and women. So whilst these things happen, we know we are living in a patriarchal society where our choices ( even the ones we feel great about) are partly controlled by a society that favours men

If you don't for one moment believe that society shapes your personal choices ( and liberal feminists tend to belong here) just consider fashion. Back in Victorian times, pale white skin was the ultimate. By the 1960s a healthy tan was the ultimate. People were clearly not making "free choice" about whether to go out or hide from the sun, because otherwise why would that choice change over time?mThey were making a free choice to follow the fashion for pale or tanned skin ..ie the choice that they felt was theirs to make was shaped by society they lived in. A girl transported from Victorian England to the 1960s would grow up to value a tan.

Your friend is right, even if he is a man. By working in the sex industry you actively support sexist believes, men's entitlement to women's bodies and an old patriarchal idea, that only men can enjoy sex, while for women sex is work. Feminism is formost about sisterhood and solidarity, by f*cking other women's boyfriend and husbands behind their back, you are doing the opposite.

But I do wonder, are strip clubs in UK in this pandemi times still open and lap dancing allowed? That is insane. Actually, I think this pandemic is a perfect opportunity to shut down sex work due to health reasons. Are prostitutes going to wear masks and gloves now?

As PPs have said, you need to look beyond your personal situation to the wider issue of women in society.
By performing your job for money, you are colluding in and perpetuating the male view of women as sex objects, mere lumps of meat that can be bought, sold and rented, only existing to service men.
Every misogynist pig who watches you is getting his repulsive beliefs validated. You are contributing to porn culture and the demeaning of women.
I couldn’t sink to that level and live with my conscience. It’s appalling that women are trafficked and coerced into it, but to do if voluntarily is an act of treason to your sisters.

If women would attend male strip clubs in the same way men do, and if women would spend as much money in them, in the same way men do, then there would be an equal or similar amount of male strip clubs. The fact that there isn’t doesn’t show that men are somehow too aware of their own value or rights to degrade themselves like that, it’s just that women don’t and wouldn’t consume that content and spend money on it in the same way men do. You do get butlers in the buff/male stripograms/chippendales/magic mike etc - do you really think those men and ones like them wouldn’t strip on stage and do private shows if they could earn £500-£5000 a night doing it?

As to why women don’t do that in the same way (or visit male prostitutes etc), who knows. Is it a societal thing (women encouraged to be chaste etc), a biological thing (in nature many males try and mate with as many females as possible to spread their DNA, while the females choose the single strongest mate) or just that women have lower sex drives/aren’t as grotty as men I have no idea!

How are you managing at the moment with lockdown?
(Irrelevant question but I imagine it must be difficult for a lot of women working in SEVs as they might be self employed)

I saw a woman speaking at an event who wrote this book

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07NB1364J/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1&tag=mumsnetforu03-21

I found her really compelling and it changed how I saw stripping.

But the point for me was that she was speaking from her lived experience.

If you have better experiences it seems unlikely you will intuitively link feminist ideas about objectification with your understanding of stripping.

The links are there, but they might not resonate for you.

I'm aware of, and sympathetic to feminist ideas about tattoos and piercings but they don't particularly resonate with me and they arent where I focus much of my energy.

For me, it is simple, really. As long as women are trafficked into sex "work" or prostitution, it not safe and it is not a "choice" for women. By participating in sex work, women who "choose" it are creating a screen behind which men who traffic women can hide. The women who claim to choose this work are complicit in the rape, torture, brutalisation and murder of their sisters.

This kind of work being empowering to women is the biggest lie ever sold to us. Liberal feminism focuses on your individual freedom. Radical feminism is about the liberation of women and girls.

Performing for the gratification of men is not liberation. It's capitalism at best and the promotion of rape, porn culture and trafficking at worst.

@forsucksfake There are lots of other jobs which people (often/usually vulnerable women) are trafficked into though, not just sex work. Does that also mean that anyone who works as a fruit picker, farm worker, labourer or housekeeper/maid are also complicit? As all of those professions have trafficked women/people in them.

Surely if anything, if tomorrow 50% of none trafficked women who are sex workers stopped then there would be more women trafficked into it to meet that demand?

Trafficking is wrong full stop
I think the point is if you need to traffic and are able to , then there is something fundamentally wrong as that's a demand that is not met by willing volunteers

A maid is an interesting example, I would argue that a maid, as in a cleaner or such is problematical in that tend to be female and as such undervalued , even if now hospital cleaners are key workers

But in lots of cases maid is a euphemism for slave

There are lots of jobs that slaves used to do that free people can do

I am wibbling

All business transactions consist of exchanging money, services, or items so what is the difference between me working my day job at a spa and giving a man a pedicure vs me working my night job and giving a man a lap dance?

I've never worked in either role. Perhaps you can tell me why it's not the pedicure job you're having this conundrum about?

In both cases I am providing a service to men or women in exchange for money.

So in one, you've probably been trained how to do a pedicure, yes?
You would provide this to men and women.
In the other, you're being paid so that men can look at your body. Maybe there is some training involved in how to make yourself most appealing to these male clients, to satisfy their visual appetites, as it were, in order to make the most money.
My guess is that this process was slightly different to learning how to do a pedicure.
How many women are attending the lapdancing club to pay you money to look at you naked?

In both cases I am also maintaining my morals and self-respect.

Excellent. I think you are deserving of self-love and to centre yourself.

I believe it's possible to work in nightclubs and be a feminist as many girls I work with are.

I would respectfully disagree that anything to do with the sex industry is feminist, but feminism is very broad. Liberal feminism might be more your thing (though, I personally think it makes very little coherent sense and is not transformative, rather upholds patriarchal norms/values by pretending they're "feminist choices").

From what I understand about it, feminism isn't about one sex being above the other, it's about equality and equality is present in the nightclubs whether we're naked or not.

Is it? Who actually holds the power? Might it be the club owners? Or the punters with the money? Have women ever had their employment threatened if they won't do certain things? Are the men who work there naked, too, or only the women? Does your workplace recognise and value you for any other of your personal attributes than what your body looks like/how much you please men?

I think feminism is about the needs and liberation of the female sex. It's asking, well what about women? What's best for women, from a class/systems perspective?

I was expecting the "what abouts".

Obviously all trafficking is wrong. And when women are involved, forced sexual exploitation becomes part of the work, whatever it is.

For me, the complicity lies in the scale of the exploitation of women. Are you aware that of the International Labour Organization stats reporting that commercial sexual exploitation for two-thirds of the profits from forced labor? And that forced sex “work” is the most profitable, victim for victim, compared to the other kinds of work you mentioned?

If all the non-trafficked women gave up their work in the sex industry, then surely the moral imperative would be heightened for men who consume the exploitation of women and law enforcement?