Sex Work & Feminism

[peaches2290]

Can you uphold feminist beliefs/values while working in the sex industry?
I am an exotic dancer (21) working in nightclubs. I personally am not super into feminism, I simply don't know much about it. However, the topic came up between me and a male friend. His point of view is that "being a stripper does not support feminist values because woman are doing something that the men want that is objectifying us". I disagree with his opinion because (having worked in the industry first-hand) I know that we are allowed, if not encouraged, to decline services to men if they are being rude/disrespectful/excessively drunk, etc. All business transactions consist of exchanging money, services, or items so what is the difference between me working my day job at a spa and giving a man a pedicure vs me working my night job and giving a man a lap dance? In both cases I am providing a service to men or women in exchange for money. In both cases I am also maintaining my morals and self-respect. I believe it's possible to work in nightclubs and be a feminist as many girls I work with are. From what I understand about it, feminism isn't about one sex being above the other, it's about equality and equality is present in the nightclubs whether we're naked or not. I may be incorrect which is why I wanted to pose the question here and get opinions from others.

[insideandout3]

Sorry that happened to you FlyingOink, I agree with you on this formulaic one, as do others I'm sure.

[NewNameGuy]

^midgebabe nailed it I think

[Gettingo]

There are lots of such establishments and I suspect that you know this very well

I didn't know!

Yes, let's give people involved in the Deer Tribe money to fiddle with the nether reigons of vulnerable people via the NHS

You obviously know more about it than I do. I just meant that men's sexual experiences always seem to be hero and the sex industry is oriented to men so if the OP wants equality it would require a major shift of emphasis. But maybe I'm wrong! There's a lot of things I don't know about that is for sure.

[StillWeRise]

OP go back to what a PP said as I think it's an excellent test for deciding whether or not women are being oppressed/discriminated against

does this happen to men too?/are the men doing it?

I think the numbers of men selling sexual services to women is vanishingly small

Real feminism isn't about 'equality' it's about the liberation of women as a class, so just because an individual woman chooses to do something, that doesn't make that choice a feminist choice.

Even if a woman were able to organise her own selling of sex, in a way she was confident was safe and where she was completely in control (which I think is highly unlikely - outside of the fantasies of some men)- such a choice would still not be a feminist choice because it would support an industry which overwhelmingly is bad for women.

I'm also somewhat sceptical of the OP's story, but it's worth having the discussion anyway.

[hoodathunkit]

For me it's like, what sexual services are available to women? Not many. There are thousands if not millions of women who go along sexually unsatisfied. How is that equality?

There are lots of such establishments and I suspect that you know this very well

The government should fund sex training schools for men who would then go out and service unsatisfied women all around the country. There should be research grants to find out how to optimise female pleasure.

You sound like someone promoting a tantric sex cult.

This kind of thing

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20120114050931/www.shaktitantra.co.uk/shakti-tantra-and-the-nhs.html" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20120114050931/www.shaktitantra.co.uk/shakti-tantra-and-the-nhs.html

Yes, let's give people involved in the Deer Tribe money to fiddle with the nether reigons of vulnerable people via the NHS

What could possibly go wrong?

[LouiseCollina]

From what I understand about it, feminism isn't about one sex being above the other, it's about equality and equality is present in the nightclubs whether we're naked or not.

This would be a comment to sneer at if it were not so fucking sad.

[Z0rr0]

As the poster above has suggested I would think about this through the lenses of power and respect.
In your day job you are respected by men for being a talented practitioner of your craft. And you have total control. If you had a customer you didn't want to offer a service to you could refuse to take him on. If he tried to touch or talk to you inappropriately you could report him and potentially have him arrested.
In your evening job the men are not showing you respect. They do not respect the artistry of your dance or think of you as a woman worthy of respect like a sister or mother. They are simply there for gratification and your needs are not considered. Possibly you work for a company that does respect its workers and places their safety at the highest level but if you're ever placed in a situation where you are not free to reject a client or to put up with them speaking or touching you inappropriately then you are not in a position of power.
Those are the differences between the two jobs and that's why feminists struggle with the sex industry.
You might feel unexploited because you get paid but you are being exploited for your body and appearance and as others say that fuels the view in wider society that women are valued only for their sexual worth and look. Otherwise there would be dancers there who are all shapes and appearances and I can't think that would be the case, tho do correct me if I'm wrong.
I would never condemn a woman for their choices. If you're happy and recompensed appropriately more power to you. Stay safe.

[witchesaremysisters]

This:
When your value goes down as you become more experienced, you are not providing a service, you are the product.

And this:
Being complicit in your own exploitation does create the illusion of power, but never produces the thing itself.

To turn to your follow-up post OP,

I am a licensed cosmetologist by trade but still work in the club since I'm new in the beauty industry (recent graduate) and don't have many clients.

Congrats on the license. What would you like to do in the long run? When you're updating your employment profile a decade from now, which job skills from exotic dancing do you think you will be putting down?

I should have added in that I work in Las Vegas and we have both male and female dancers, as well as I have both female and male clients (more males than females obviously), however I know that's not the case for most cities.

That's not the case for most establishments, let alone cities. Can you give me an estimate as to the male:female ratio of clients?

I have absolutely no issue serving men at either job, but I was curious as to why one is viewed differently than the other. In both instances I'm providing a service for money.

In one, maybe. In the other, you're getting naked/simulating a sexual act.

I know many view stripping as demeaning but I find it empowering, the ultimate expression of freedom.

What freedom & empowerment?

To be naked in a place that profits off your body being exposed?

To have men get inebriated and feel aroused?

Does this club empower you to freely walk around fully clothed and in sensible footwear on some days, if that's what you want to do?

When I started dancing at 19 to help get myself through school, maybe I did compromise my values because I felt uncomfortable saying "no", but since then I realized I hold the power.

This to me sounds like you've had some negative experiences that would suggest you're the vulnerable one in this situation, for which I'm sorry. But for some reason, you're now wanting to convince strangers on the internet that nope you're the one with agency.
I'm afraid that simply isn't the case.
Even if you look at it from an age/economic perspective.
You're young. You may have had few options. You've maybe been coerced before into doing things you actually didn't want to.
And the men?
Paint me a picture of how old the punters are and what their economic power is.
Let's say there's a punter who isn't drunk, or even behaving untoward, but something about him gives you a really bad vibe. Or maybe he reminds you too much of a relative. Maybe he is someone you know. Whatever it is, you really don't like the idea of being naked on top of his lap. Would you be allowed to say no?

What are the club regulations for dancers? Have women gotten kicked out for refusing to do certain things? Some places actually make dancers pay a fee to work there, which then means they're subtly pressured into doing more in order to earn back what their money... do you have to do this?

Nothing I don't want will ever occur in my place of work and that has carried over into my personal life as well.

I've listened to enough stories of women who survived the sex industry. I have zero confidence in this statement, though I hope for your sake that you're the extremely rare exception to the rule.

[littlbrowndog]

It’s just taking your clothes off for men who payto look at your naked body.

They get something for their wank bank

It’s not feminism

[HorseRadishFemish]

Can you uphold feminist beliefs/values while working in the sex industry?

No.

...next!

[DuLANGDuLANGDuLANG]

Being complicit in your own exploitation does create the illusion of power, but never produces the thing itself.

This ^

[FlyingOink]

To answer the original post, however: what is the difference between me working my day job at a spa and giving a man a pedicure vs me working my night job and giving a man a lap dance? Which one would you be more comfortable doing for your father or brother? Why?
And would you find it normal if your client became visibly aroused during a pedicure? Do your pedicure clients normally show up drunk and yell filth at you; do you need security guards with you when you do pedicures?

Do you think your lapdance clients' female partners would be happier to learn their husband or boyfriend had gone for a pedicure or for a lapdance?

Now that we've established one service is inherently sexual and the other is not, you can see that there is an added power dynamic as you are selling your sexuality and your ability to arouse your clients.
In so doing you reinforce the view that women are A: primarily for sex B: available for cash and C: sex-crazed vixens who love to writhe about on a stranger's clothed genitals. None of those three things are true, but you are reinforcing the belief. None of those men leave the premises as nicer people who are more inclined to see women as human beings.

So no, there's nothing feminist in doing that job. If you real, and you enjoy your job, good for you. I hope you continue to enjoy it and I hope nothing bad happens to you. But just because you like it doesn't make it feminist.

[TehBewilderness]

Being complicit in your own exploitation does create the illusion of power, but never produces the thing itself.

[FloraFox]

since then I realized I hold the power

What power do you hold? The "power" to say no to abusive men is not in your hands. The men who own and run your club hold that power and if they did not want to have the type of strip bar that is "respectable", that would not be within your power.

The difference between being a cosmetologist and a stripper is demonstrated in your last post. Your value as a stripper is highest when you are young and inexperienced. Your value as a cosmetologist is lowest when you are young and inexperienced.

When your value goes down as you become more experienced, you are not providing a service, you are the product.

[peaches2290]

@SoldiersinPetticoats “Are the men doing it too? Are men lap dancing in nightclubs?"
@witchesaremysisters "I've never worked in either role. Perhaps you can tell me why it's not the pedicure job you're having this conundrum about?" I am a licensed cosmetologist by trade but still work in the club since I'm new in the beauty industry (recent graduate) and don't have many clients. I should have added in that I work in Las Vegas and we have both male and female dancers, as well as I have both female and male clients (more males than females obviously), however I know that's not the case for most cities. I have absolutely no issue serving men at either job, but I was curious as to why one is viewed differently than the other. In both instances I'm providing a service for money. I know many view stripping as demeaning but I find it empowering, the ultimate expression of freedom. When I started dancing at 19 to help get myself through school, maybe I did compromise my values because I felt uncomfortable saying "no", but since then I realized I hold the power. Nothing I don't want will ever occur in my place of work and that has carried over into my personal life as well.
@DancelikeEmmaGoldman "You know, it’s not a true/false exam - there’s no right way of doing feminism. We’re not here to rubber stamp your feminist passport." I've read through all the replies (thanks to everyone who responded so far) and I definitely agree with your statement. I believe it's all about what is comfortable and consentual. Some people will view it as "promotion of rape, porn culture, and trafficking" @jeaux90 but that's simply not my experience with it and it's okay to agree to disagree. I agree, it's not a true/false question as it varies according to one's own experiences and perspectives.

[Qcng]

To PP arguing that "well, nail artists and strawberry pickers are trafficked too..."

It reminds me of arguments saying "prostitution is just like any other job, like mining or being an actor"

Anyone who really can't tell the difference between capitalist exploitation that harms man and women, and sex exploitation that specifically harms women in order to give men a stiffy, and why this is a specifically feminist issue not a Marxist/Capitalist theory issue, really needs to get with the program.

[DuLANGDuLANGDuLANG]

I did the same kind of job at the same kind of age.

The answer is no.

There is no ‘sex industry’ only grooming young people (majority female) into organised crime.

[twoHopes]

I think PPs have summed it up quite well. Being a "good feminist" is not about the decisions you make for yourself, it's understanding the impact your decisions have on women as a group.

I'm afraid you'd have to be kidding yourself to think that stripping is helping women as a group. Not only is it objectifying but I've lost count of the number of times I've had friends in tears after finding out their partner has paid for a lap dance.

But I don't think it's fair to pick on strippers specifically. Every time you buy a piece of cheap fast-fashion there's a woman in a factory somewhere getting paid a pittance and potentially being abused by her male employer. Every time you inject Botox into your face you condone the idea that this is the standard women must meet. We are all victims and perpetrators at the same time.

I think the first step to being a feminist is self-awareness and an understanding of your place in this sexist world. Unfortunately that's normally quite a depressing process and it's much easier to take the "fun feminism" route of thinking all the decisions we make are glittery and cool and empowering.

[Antibles]

You have your clothes off. The men keep their clothes on. Putting the money aside, can't you see the dignity/degradation imbalance there?

Rightly or wrongly, there is a massive taboo on nakedness in public in modern society. Men enjoy looking at strippers but despise them for showing what they otherwise wouldn't show in exchange for cash. That cash is the price of your dignity in a man's mind and that's the power trip for him.

[forsucksfake]

I was expecting the "what abouts".

Obviously all trafficking is wrong. And when women are involved, forced sexual exploitation becomes part of the work, whatever it is.

For me, the complicity lies in the scale of the exploitation of women. Are you aware that of the International Labour Organization stats reporting that commercial sexual exploitation for two-thirds of the profits from forced labor? And that forced sex “work” is the most profitable, victim for victim, compared to the other kinds of work you mentioned?

If all the non-trafficked women gave up their work in the sex industry, then surely the moral imperative would be heightened for men who consume the exploitation of women and law enforcement?

[witchesaremysisters]

All business transactions consist of exchanging money, services, or items so what is the difference between me working my day job at a spa and giving a man a pedicure vs me working my night job and giving a man a lap dance?

I've never worked in either role. Perhaps you can tell me why it's not the pedicure job you're having this conundrum about?

In both cases I am providing a service to men or women in exchange for money.

So in one, you've probably been trained how to do a pedicure, yes?
You would provide this to men and women.
In the other, you're being paid so that men can look at your body. Maybe there is some training involved in how to make yourself most appealing to these male clients, to satisfy their visual appetites, as it were, in order to make the most money.
My guess is that this process was slightly different to learning how to do a pedicure.
How many women are attending the lapdancing club to pay you money to look at you naked?

In both cases I am also maintaining my morals and self-respect.

Excellent. I think you are deserving of self-love and to centre yourself.

I believe it's possible to work in nightclubs and be a feminist as many girls I work with are.

I would respectfully disagree that anything to do with the sex industry is feminist, but feminism is very broad. Liberal feminism might be more your thing (though, I personally think it makes very little coherent sense and is not transformative, rather upholds patriarchal norms/values by pretending they're "feminist choices").

From what I understand about it, feminism isn't about one sex being above the other, it's about equality and equality is present in the nightclubs whether we're naked or not.

Is it? Who actually holds the power? Might it be the club owners? Or the punters with the money? Have women ever had their employment threatened if they won't do certain things? Are the men who work there naked, too, or only the women? Does your workplace recognise and value you for any other of your personal attributes than what your body looks like/how much you please men?

I think feminism is about the needs and liberation of the female sex. It's asking, well what about women? What's best for women, from a class/systems perspective?

[midgebabe]

Trafficking is wrong full stop
I think the point is if you need to traffic and are able to , then there is something fundamentally wrong as that's a demand that is not met by willing volunteers

A maid is an interesting example, I would argue that a maid, as in a cleaner or such is problematical in that tend to be female and as such undervalued , even if now hospital cleaners are key workers

But in lots of cases maid is a euphemism for slave

There are lots of jobs that slaves used to do that free people can do

I am wibbling