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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

These questions for Liz Truss... How would you answer them?

143 replies

witchesaremysisters · 25/04/2020 17:32

So I fell down a rabbit hole after reading this tweet:
twitter.com/WhatTheTrans/status/1253750544763674629

(Image attached from that tweet. And. Wow. But it's FINE for women to feel uncomfortable in THEIR single sex spaces or have to restrict themselves/go on the urinary leash?!? Also, the number of times I've been told to stop worrying about toilets? Right back 'atcha pal.)

They link to someplace called the Kite Trust, which had a list of questions for Liz Truss taken from Gay Star News.

How would you answer them? I am going to pretend I'm Liz and have a go.

1 What protections are you planning for ‘single-sex spaces’? Will trans, intersex and non-binary people be able to use bathrooms, changing rooms and other facilities freely?

Single sex facilities are to be single sex. They are what it says on the sign, frankly. They really don't exist to validate someone's gender identity. If you were born male, you don't come into a female-only space. You know what sex you are and that you are transgressing by coming into the space of another. Nobody asked women about this initially, but we understand women are not happy about sharing single sex spaces with males so we're rectifying the situation. Policies that trans activists are pushing for today might actually be illegal as they discriminate against females. We'll make third spaces to accommodate those people who don't feel comfortable in the facilities of their own sex. This would seem the most progressive way forward: it keeps vital protections for women and girls, and also lets nonbinary folks not have their sense of identity hurt, and increases the number of available facilities.

We'll throw some of the money that we give to Stonewall at making new toilet facilities in public spaces. Maybe they could even help build them, instead of us paying them to re-explain to us why the difference between neutrois and agender matters. Oh, here's a thought: why don't we make the sign for these third space facilities the Trans Umbrella? Or would the Genderbread person be better?

2 What ‘checks and balances’ are you considering on trans adults’ lives? Will these represent additional restrictions on transgender people’s freedoms?

What freedoms do transgender people lack that everyone else has? Genuine question. Who else is allowed to fake their birth certificate? Why don't we instead make some kind of new gender identity piece of paper that can be changed as freely as you like. But given that sex is immutable, we're going to stop pretending people can "amend" it. Nobody has the "right" to document a lie about biological fact in a historical record. Some things can be gender identity based, but in important circumstances some are to be categorised by sex. Such as prisons. Or collection of data such as in the census. Same with women's refuges. These are only a couple of examples off the top of my head, but if you all want to come and actually talk respectfully with women, the adult female humans who are more than an indefinable nebulous essence in a male mind, I'm sure we could hash something out.

3 What restrictions will you apply to trans access to transition healthcare before the age of 18? Do you realise these medical interventions are often lifesaving for vulnerable teenagers? Will you stop trans teens accessing hormone blockers? Will trans teens be able to access transition healthcare provided they do not take so-called ‘irreversible steps’?

I don't realise anything as nobody is systematically collecting long term data on this unprecedented medical experiment. I'd prefer if we stopped this outright now, but if you want to continue doing any of this, you have to set up proper randomised controlled trials. The onus is on you to prove what you are claiming. Show me the data. Gather it like you would for other "treatments." Include all the stuff about looking for potentially harmful side effects. Properly follow up the children for many years down the line. Show me the actual evidence that any benefit massively outweighs the harms. Show me how you are only picking the "true trans" kids to give these drugs to. Develop an objective marker. Compare medication versus solid mental health support and see who does better over the long run. You'd also have to explain to the kids that this "treatment" may crystallise their gender identity (not "buy time") and that "medically transitioning" will leave them sterile and on hormones for life. And that there is no actual long-term evidence it will make them less depressed (in fact, data released in FOIs from the Tavistock found that puberty blockers might increase suicidal thoughts, but we can't know for sure because, again, they've not made a scientifically robust attempt at figuring out that sort of relevant information about this "treatment").

All you have right now are empty utterings from people who have far too much vested interest in the idea that what they are doing must be "good," probably because the true nature of these "treatments" which mean sterilising gender nonconforming, likely homosexual, children and young people, is frankly horrifying.

If kids are struggling with their mental health, including ideas around their sexed bodies or gendered behaviours, they should have access to excellent, quality counselling, social and mental health support for their developing sense of self.

Produce me the evidence for why only this specific mental health issue in children, gender dysphoria, must be treated with experimental, irreversible physical interventions rather than psychological input. Because according to a Professor in Evidence Based Medicine from Oxford, who looked into this issue thoroughly, we don't have any.

4 Has the government considered the mental health impact of this policy change? And if so, who managed and advised on that assessment? Did they consider the dangers of self-harm, suicide and long term mental health trauma this may cause?

We considered that there may be a tantrum and threats from trans activists. Sure. But then we factored in the mental health of women, many of whom are incredibly depressed and frustrated over being forced to lie about reality. We thought about the feminists who are getting abused for not wanting to give up their hard-won gains to males. Then we considered what is happening to vulnerable young people, mainly female, with the rapid rise in referrals to the Tavistock with gender issues. We thought about these kids with autism, histories of abuse, trauma and eating disorders, who deserve much better than to be funneled into an unregulated medical experiment.

Yes. Mental health was at the forefront of our minds.

5 Is this policy a sign the government agrees with TERFs and the anti-trans LGB Alliance who represent fringe, transphobic views? Why has the government pursued this policy rather than one the vast majority of LGBT+ people would support?

We're listening to lesbians of the old-fashioned, female, cunty variety. Oh... and the common sense of the vast majority of the population.

Need I remind you that sex and sexual orientation are both protected characteristics in the Equality Act 2010? Thanks ever-so for not using a misogynistic slur in any future correspondence and for refraining from slandering a brilliant organisation like the LGB Alliance.

6 The UN Human Rights Commissioner has instructed that states do not use the coronavirus period to roll back LGBT+ rights. She singled out Hungary which has attacked trans people’s rights to legal transition during the pandemic for criticism. Therefore is now the right time to proceed with this policy?

Yes better late than never!

Halloween Smile
These questions for Liz Truss... How would you answer them?
OP posts:
ScrimpshawTheSecond · 25/04/2020 18:23

Excellent, witches. What you said.

PurpleCrowbarWhereIsLangCleg · 25/04/2020 20:09

Yes - this!

R0wantrees · 25/04/2020 21:46

We'll make third spaces to accommodate those people who don't feel comfortable in the facilities of their own sex. This would seem the most progressive way forward: it keeps vital protections for women and girls, and also lets nonbinary folks not have their sense of identity hurt, and increases the number of available facilities.

It was suggested by Lord Lewis during a House of Lords debate that male toilets/changing rooms be made open to either sex/people of any gender identity & none but women's spaces be protected as specifically for females (this would obviously include all women & girls who have a DSD & who really have had enough of their medical condition being appropriated by TRAs) whilst also encouraging the additional provision of some single occupancy unisex spaces.

JellySlice · 25/04/2020 22:48

Don't men have any right to privacy?!

R0wantrees · 25/04/2020 22:56

I'm not advocating it.

Qcng · 25/04/2020 22:59

Look around you "JellySlice" so far it's women's spaces going mixed and men's staying men's.

How about thinking about people other than man for a change?

Qcng · 25/04/2020 23:01

The "third" spaces solution has been suggested for about a decade.
Why does everyone pretend this is the most impossible/terrible thing?

Florabritannica · 25/04/2020 23:23

This is one of the things I just don’t understand: what empirically-observable distinctions are there between male and female if the obvious biological ones are discounted?
In a world where ‘pink brain/blue brain’ is increasingly discredited by neurologists, how can someone’s gendered self be at odds with their sexed body? And is that observable sexed body trumped everywhere by the wholly subjective, unvalidatable gendered self?

witchesaremysisters · 25/04/2020 23:27

From a personal perspective (not with a "pretending to be Liz Truss" hat on), thanks for the kind words.
I do think if we can't get third spaces and one needs to be "open" it should be the men's. I've definitely had many moments standing in the queue for the ladies' when I've wished I could just pop over to the men's. I'm also not sure why people call this a terrible solution, except something about making trans folks feel othered and the expense of implementing it. But if this really is just about going to the toilet in peace, not about control or using opposite sex spaces as validation, then third spaces wouldn't need to be labelled anything other than gender neutral/unisex and they would be open to anyone to use. Plus we probably spend a lot of money on gender identity training to demand women to comply/give up their boundaries. If that energy were redirected to third spaces, we'd get something actually useful for everyone. (I was being facetious about the umbrella - I just think it could look kinda cool!)

OP posts:
Goosefoot · 25/04/2020 23:32

Look around you "JellySlice" so far it's women's spaces going mixed and men's staying men's.How about thinking about people other than man for a change?

Ah, transmen also use men's spaces, making them effectively mixed. Men have as much right to privacy as women, why would you not want that brought up in a response to these questions put to the minister? It strengthens the argument for single sex spaces.

R0wantrees · 25/04/2020 23:40

Female single sex spaces are neccessary fo women & girls' safety as well as dignity & privacy

witchesaremysisters · 25/04/2020 23:54

Florabritannica
Beautifully logical questions, which transactivists likely would struggle to answer.
But I think:
-none
-no it doesn't make any sense at all but if you ask you might get the reply "well what would you do if you woke up in the body of the opposite sex" (like we're in the film Freaky Friday)
-sadly, it seems too many people would say "yes," because it's sexism packaged in pseudoscience and the language of "human rights".

OP posts:
Goosefoot · 25/04/2020 23:57

Female single sex spaces are neccessary fo women & girls' safety as well as dignity & privacy

That's not under dispute. The suggestion was that men should put up with mixed sex spaces.

Thinkingabout1t · 26/04/2020 00:30

Very well put, witches — clear and accurate. I hope Liz Truss has the courage and back-up to say the same.

TehBewilderness · 26/04/2020 00:46

Will trans, intersex and non-binary people be able to use bathrooms, changing rooms and other facilities freely?

No one has that privilege at this time, and it is my hope that no one will be given that privilege at any point in time.
These are the kinds of questions that reveal the drive to dominance behind their agenda.

BatShite · 26/04/2020 01:19

What protections are you planning for ‘single-sex spaces’? Will trans, intersex and non-binary people be able to use bathrooms, changing rooms and other facilities freely?

Not single sex if opposite sex is allowed..for gods sake how thick?! Hmm

They really think that upholding womens right to female only areas involves allowing males access to those areas?!

Yes, trans and 'non binary' people will indeed be free to use bathrooms, changing rooms and other facilities freely. The ones designated for their own sex of course like everyone else. Noone is saying they cannot use public spaces.

Ignring the randomly shoved in intersex, as its only there as a gotcha and TRA types give not a fuck about intersex people anyway..only when they can be used to say 'well I have an intersex brain, its the same!!!11'

R0wantrees · 26/04/2020 01:20

That's not under dispute. The suggestion was that men should put up with mixed sex spaces.

I summarised what I recalled from Lord Lucas' speech. He's a man, Im not.
Here are his specific points:

Hansard
Changing and Toilet Facilities in Public Buildings
24 February 2020

Lord Lucas (Conservative)
"Women who prefer not to be in an enclosed, unobserved space with men. That can obviously apply to women whose religion or custom forbids such things, but a number of women have had uncomfortable experiences with men in the past and there are some very strange men in this world and it is entirely reasonable for women to want a separate space.

I found myself using a gender-neutral toilet at the Department for Education and found it a really uncomfortable experience to come out of a cubicle not knowing whether I would frighten a woman who thought she was in a women’s toilet or was not expecting to be in the company of a man. I do not want to cause that sort of discomfort. It does not suit me to have just gender-neutral toilets. Many women have expectations of toilets being clean places. Most men will know that not all men leave toilets clean—not even in this place. Women do not like to be around overt male sexual behaviours in a space that they find hard to get out of. Many men—they have even flashed me—act in such a way, and it seems reasonable that women should have a space where they can be free of that.

In some places such as nightclubs, the Ladies can be a refuge from serious unwanted behaviour, and I do not think that any woman really wants to wash her bloody underwear when she has flooded during a period in front of men. So, altogether, what are we doing? Why are we seeking to make women feel unsafe in the toilet provision we make for them—unsafe and uncomfortable? What is the justification for it? Who is gaining an advantage in this process?" (continues)

"A much better way of catering for these people is to provide a limited gender-neutral facility. We could do as we have done with disabled toilets and provide separate facilities and label them so that the expectations are clearly that one does not use them unless one needs them. If that is not possible, we could convert the Gents. Pretty well all men could survive having a brave enough woman as company in the Gents. I do not think it would upset them. They may be a bit ashamed of the way they are behaving, but I do not think they would be otherwise disadvantaged. If we are going to provide gender-neutral facilities, convert the Gents; do not convert the Ladies. On changing facilities, I do not think that there are any circumstances under which it is appropriate for women’s changing rooms to include exposed male genitalia. That is going beyond what we would all consider reasonable." (continues)
hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2020-02-24/debates/D9459D1B-FADF-4765-AB3F-F55D4B322060/ChangingAndToiletFacilitiesInPublicBuildings

BatShite · 26/04/2020 01:34

Looks to be nothing more than a load of manipulative attempts to provoke emotion, rather than any facts..as usual TRA tactics tbh.

Will get worse before it gets better.

Tavis FOI answer though that puberty blockers might even increase suicidal thoughts and such...should surely be something thats worrying to people who claim to advocate for trans rights. They wish for this risk to be ignored in order to kee shvig blockers at kids? Rather than wanting to find out actual 'treatment' that is safe and tested. Doesn't sound much like they give a shit about the kids caught up in it to me, how odd.

How much the TRA lobby kick off about any research into detransitioners also...same thing. If they actually cared about those they claim to care for, they would want as much research done as possible in this area so everything is better understood, rather than trying to block any research! Would love for a TRA to explain these to me, won't ever happen though as they have no answer.

SonEtLumiere · 26/04/2020 06:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JellySlice · 26/04/2020 08:08

Everyone should have the right to privacy, dignity and safety.

Women are more at risk from men than vice-versa, so if only one set of facilities can be made unisex than perhaps it may seem logical that it should be the men's. But plenty of men would find that as embarrassing, uncomfortable and humiliating as women would. Why should a minority's narcissism entitle them humiliate people?

TedsFederationRep · 26/04/2020 08:30

Well, this is purely anecdotal and drawn solely from my professional experience.

I have dealt with a significant number of transwomen in prison. A good many bust a gut trying to effect a transfer to a women's prison. Some have succeeded. At least one made the headlines. Why do you suppose they do?

Clue. A surprising proportion are sex offenders.

I have also dealt with transmen in prison but have yet to meet a single one who has ever asked to be transferred to a male prison. Why do you suppose that is?

Clue. They're not daft.

merrymouse · 26/04/2020 08:43

3 What restrictions will you apply to trans access to transition healthcare before the age of 18? Do you realise these medical interventions are often lifesaving for vulnerable teenagers? Will you stop trans teens accessing hormone blockers? Will trans teens be able to access transition healthcare provided they do not take so-called ‘irreversible steps’?

As with all other medical treatment in the UK, provision of services must be evidence based. There is currently no evidence that these medical interventions are life saving. We currently lack data, so we will be urgently funding research.

OldCrone · 26/04/2020 09:05

Women are more at risk from men than vice-versa, so if only one set of facilities can be made unisex than perhaps it may seem logical that it should be the men's. But plenty of men would find that as embarrassing, uncomfortable and humiliating as women would.

But there would be no impact on the safety of men using those facilities. If organisations need to convert one set of facilities to unisex they could try converting the men's and see if the men are bothered by it. It's not our job as women to look after men. They're perfectly capable of looking after themselves.

It might turn out that men just aren't that bothered, but if they are they can start working towards a solution which works for everyone instead of leaving it up to women to do this work.

midgebabe · 26/04/2020 09:07

I would like to find ways to save the lives of vulnerable young people without causing any physical harm, without giving them a treatment that in all likelyhood will shorten their lives.

For most of humanities existence, we have managed to get children through to adults without a significant percentage killing themselves due to their gender identify issues. Increased transition rates now are not associated with any decline in youth suicide rates unfortunately.

OldCrone · 26/04/2020 09:12

What restrictions will you apply to trans access to transition healthcare before the age of 18? Do you realise these medical interventions are often lifesaving for vulnerable teenagers? Will you stop trans teens accessing hormone blockers? Will trans teens be able to access transition healthcare provided they do not take so-called ‘irreversible steps’?

We have been told that being trans is not an illness. What specific healthcare do these people who are not ill actually need? The NHS will always prioritise those who are ill over those who desire medical treatment for other reasons such as cosmetic surgery.

In what way are these treatments 'lifesaving' when used to treat a person who is not ill?

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