These questions for Liz Truss... How would you answer them?

[witchesaremysisters]

So I fell down a rabbit hole after reading this tweet:
twitter.com/WhatTheTrans/status/1253750544763674629

(Image attached from that tweet. And. Wow. But it's FINE for women to feel uncomfortable in THEIR single sex spaces or have to restrict themselves/go on the urinary leash?!? Also, the number of times I've been told to stop worrying about toilets? Right back 'atcha pal.)

They link to someplace called the Kite Trust, which had a list of questions for Liz Truss taken from Gay Star News.

How would you answer them? I am going to pretend I'm Liz and have a go.

1 What protections are you planning for ‘single-sex spaces’? Will trans, intersex and non-binary people be able to use bathrooms, changing rooms and other facilities freely?

Single sex facilities are to be single sex. They are what it says on the sign, frankly. They really don't exist to validate someone's gender identity. If you were born male, you don't come into a female-only space. You know what sex you are and that you are transgressing by coming into the space of another. Nobody asked women about this initially, but we understand women are not happy about sharing single sex spaces with males so we're rectifying the situation. Policies that trans activists are pushing for today might actually be illegal as they discriminate against females. We'll make third spaces to accommodate those people who don't feel comfortable in the facilities of their own sex. This would seem the most progressive way forward: it keeps vital protections for women and girls, and also lets nonbinary folks not have their sense of identity hurt, and increases the number of available facilities.

We'll throw some of the money that we give to Stonewall at making new toilet facilities in public spaces. Maybe they could even help build them, instead of us paying them to re-explain to us why the difference between neutrois and agender matters. Oh, here's a thought: why don't we make the sign for these third space facilities the Trans Umbrella? Or would the Genderbread person be better?

2 What ‘checks and balances’ are you considering on trans adults’ lives? Will these represent additional restrictions on transgender people’s freedoms?

What freedoms do transgender people lack that everyone else has? Genuine question. Who else is allowed to fake their birth certificate? Why don't we instead make some kind of new gender identity piece of paper that can be changed as freely as you like. But given that sex is immutable, we're going to stop pretending people can "amend" it. Nobody has the "right" to document a lie about biological fact in a historical record. Some things can be gender identity based, but in important circumstances some are to be categorised by sex. Such as prisons. Or collection of data such as in the census. Same with women's refuges. These are only a couple of examples off the top of my head, but if you all want to come and actually talk respectfully with women, the adult female humans who are more than an indefinable nebulous essence in a male mind, I'm sure we could hash something out.

3 What restrictions will you apply to trans access to transition healthcare before the age of 18? Do you realise these medical interventions are often lifesaving for vulnerable teenagers? Will you stop trans teens accessing hormone blockers? Will trans teens be able to access transition healthcare provided they do not take so-called ‘irreversible steps’?

I don't realise anything as nobody is systematically collecting long term data on this unprecedented medical experiment. I'd prefer if we stopped this outright now, but if you want to continue doing any of this, you have to set up proper randomised controlled trials. The onus is on you to prove what you are claiming. Show me the data. Gather it like you would for other "treatments." Include all the stuff about looking for potentially harmful side effects. Properly follow up the children for many years down the line. Show me the actual evidence that any benefit massively outweighs the harms. Show me how you are only picking the "true trans" kids to give these drugs to. Develop an objective marker. Compare medication versus solid mental health support and see who does better over the long run. You'd also have to explain to the kids that this "treatment" may crystallise their gender identity (not "buy time") and that "medically transitioning" will leave them sterile and on hormones for life. And that there is no actual long-term evidence it will make them less depressed (in fact, data released in FOIs from the Tavistock found that puberty blockers might increase suicidal thoughts, but we can't know for sure because, again, they've not made a scientifically robust attempt at figuring out that sort of relevant information about this "treatment").

All you have right now are empty utterings from people who have far too much vested interest in the idea that what they are doing must be "good," probably because the true nature of these "treatments" which mean sterilising gender nonconforming, likely homosexual, children and young people, is frankly horrifying.

If kids are struggling with their mental health, including ideas around their sexed bodies or gendered behaviours, they should have access to excellent, quality counselling, social and mental health support for their developing sense of self.

Produce me the evidence for why only this specific mental health issue in children, gender dysphoria, must be treated with experimental, irreversible physical interventions rather than psychological input. Because according to a Professor in Evidence Based Medicine from Oxford, who looked into this issue thoroughly, we don't have any.

4 Has the government considered the mental health impact of this policy change? And if so, who managed and advised on that assessment? Did they consider the dangers of self-harm, suicide and long term mental health trauma this may cause?

We considered that there may be a tantrum and threats from trans activists. Sure. But then we factored in the mental health of women, many of whom are incredibly depressed and frustrated over being forced to lie about reality. We thought about the feminists who are getting abused for not wanting to give up their hard-won gains to males. Then we considered what is happening to vulnerable young people, mainly female, with the rapid rise in referrals to the Tavistock with gender issues. We thought about these kids with autism, histories of abuse, trauma and eating disorders, who deserve much better than to be funneled into an unregulated medical experiment.

Yes. Mental health was at the forefront of our minds.

5 Is this policy a sign the government agrees with TERFs and the anti-trans LGB Alliance who represent fringe, transphobic views? Why has the government pursued this policy rather than one the vast majority of LGBT+ people would support?

We're listening to lesbians of the old-fashioned, female, cunty variety. Oh... and the common sense of the vast majority of the population.

Need I remind you that sex and sexual orientation are both protected characteristics in the Equality Act 2010? Thanks ever-so for not using a misogynistic slur in any future correspondence and for refraining from slandering a brilliant organisation like the LGB Alliance.

6 The UN Human Rights Commissioner has instructed that states do not use the coronavirus period to roll back LGBT+ rights. She singled out Hungary which has attacked trans people’s rights to legal transition during the pandemic for criticism. Therefore is now the right time to proceed with this policy?

Yes better late than never!

Basically people who might really not fit into either sexed toilet

Why would a male who has had genital surgery 'not fit into either sexed toilet'? A man without a penis is still a man. A woman is not simply a man without a penis. A man who has had his penis removed because he wants to resemble a woman fits in the same category as a man who has lost his penis in an accident.

We'd all be a lot better off if people stopped thinking that it is somehow 'progressive' to believe that people can change sex, and instead accept that everyone should be free to present however they like, but that biology exists and sex can't be changed.

We'd all be a lot better off if people stopped thinking that it is somehow 'progressive' to believe that people can change sex, and instead accept that everyone should be free to present however they like, but that biology exists and sex can't be changed.

This ^^

Also that women whose appearance is altered due to taking testosterone do not behave as men in female single sex spaces.

There is a risk of echoing Peter Dunne's appalling suggestion that women (human females) who''ve had 'gender' surgeries & treatments cause fear amongst other women in single sex spaces just as those who have had cancer treatments. This is entirely false.

Basically people who might really not fit into either sexed toilet

There is another quite large group of people who sometimes fit into this category - people caring for somebody of the opposite sex.

Therefore we have the large disability toilets.

*Basically people who might really not fit into either sexed toilet
*
Being tattooed from head to toe, splitting your tongue, inserting horns under the skin and having multiple facial piercings does not make a person not fit into either sexed toilet, so why should any other body modifications?

They may make the other toilet-users feel uncomfortable, but that's no reason for saying the the modified person should not use the toilet for their sex.

Why would a male who has had genital surgery 'not fit into either sexed toilet'? A man without a penis is still a man. A woman is not simply a man without a penis. A man who has had his penis removed because he wants to resemble a woman fits in the same category as a man who has lost his penis in an accident. We'd all be a lot better off if people stopped thinking that it is somehow 'progressive' to believe that people can change sex, and instead accept that everyone should be free to present however they like, but that biology exists and sex can't be changed.

I'm not saying people can change their sex. I don't think anyone should be using the toilets of the other sex.

But I don't think that the question of third options is really about ideology, I think it's largely practical. It doesn't matter if a transman with a phalloplasty and who looks like a man, even if an odd man, is really a woman if it causes a problem in a changing place or even a toilet. That's not to say it always would - in a place like an office it might not matter at all. But I think there are instances where a person might reasonably think that what appears to be a man going into the ladies would seem inappropriate and cause trouble. I think in that instance it would be pretty understandable for the individual to want to use a single toilet and avoid the whole thing, and it might be more thoughtful to others as well.

If we are talking about the larger numbers we are seeing now in some high schools and such, it does become a problem to accommodate them - you would need a good many single toilets. If it is as it ought to be, it would be vanishingly rare for this to be an issue and probably could be managed without too much trouble.

And other body modifications don't give you the appearance of being a man in the woman's loo. A weirdo maybe, but not a man which isn't allowed and it's not at all impossible someone might object.

It doesn't matter if a transman with a phalloplasty and who looks like a man, even if an odd man, is really a woman if it causes a problem in a changing place or even a toilet.

Why would a transman who passes as a man be using a women's toilet? Do men object to transmen using their toilets? Females are not a threat to men, so why would they object? And would they even know? This is not an equivalent situation to men (with or without penises) in female-only spaces.

It doesn't matter if a transman with a phalloplasty and who looks like a man, even if an odd man, is really a woman if it causes a problem in a changing place or even a toilet.

Of course it matters
If a space is a female single sex space then all females should be able to use it. That includes females who are gender non conforming &/or whose appearance is masculinised due to medication.
Women are very able to recognise those who are the same sex or opposite sex in real life than from a photograph.
Dr Katie Alcock (Lancaster University Developmental Psychology)
medium.com/@katieja/but-how-can-you-tell-7901324d0919

Well, it's a bit funny that the last two responses have said the oposite. One person thinks that the transman who passes should use the mens (too bad men) and the other says, of course they should use the women's.

Which is pretty much illustrates my the point. Said transman who respects men's single sex spaces may prefer not to be asked by the ladies to leave and need to get into a discussion of which toilet is appropriate, even if it was perfectly legitimate to claim that was the appropriate toilet.

And statistical studies on groups can't be applied to individuals uniformly. That's not how they work.

Therefore we have the large disability toilets.

I was thinking more about children. My point is that a unisex toilet doesn't have to be 'othering' as plenty of people prefer or don't mind using unisex toilets.

True. And it is not always possible to form absolute rules that apply across the board. People are squishy, not hard maths.

One person thinks that the transman who passes should use the mens (too bad men) and the other says, of course they should use the women's.

No Goose, I said all females should be able to use female single sex spaces.
Many male TRAs have perpetrated a myth that females with masculinised features would cause fear or discomfort to other women or girls in female single sex spaces. This has been a deliberate strategy used to attempt to legitimise males who believe they 'pass' accessing female single sex space. Many females who identify as transgender or detransitioned express concern not to cause fear as the reason for not using female single sex spaces.

I find the discussion around 'butch' women to be confusing and dishonest. I have never before mistaken a woman who adopts a 'butch' look as a man but, is this because I have not seen the more sophisticated customary of the current look?

To me , this has always felt like an othering argument from the TR As rather than a supportative statement.

rather than a supportative statement for their argument that should read.

I don't think butch women are the issue here. More the body-building porn producer or paunchy, bearded, balding ones. Basically females who have taken testosterone for long enough that it has made substantial permanent changes to their bodies.

Many females who identify as transgender or detransitioned express concern not to cause fear as the reason for not using female single sex spaces.

Which was why I suggested that transmen who pass might prefer to use the men's. Do men object to them doing this? If not, then we have a solution. Transgender people (both sexes) can use the men's. The women's is for female people only, including transmen who don't want to use the men's (but if they pass as men can expect to be challenged). Transwomen should stick with their own sex, and if they are really 'living as women' they should show some consideration for women who might recognise them as male and the fear this might cause.

One person thinks that the transman who passes should use the mens (too bad men)

Has anyone asked the men? Maybe they won't care. And if they do care, maybe they could explain why a 5'2" boyish looking female is a threat to them. Could you ask this on a meninism board and let us know what they say? Or if there are any men lurking here, what's your view on this?

Has anyone asked the men?

I asked my dad a while back. He doesn't believe TMAM, and said he's not particularly keen on having women in his loos, especially what with urinals. Very much a dignity thing rather than a safety thing.

Proposed open space really needs to not have urinals in it.

Transgender people (both sexes) can use the men's.

Yep, as opposed to both using the ladies' as currently happens. We could even stop calling it the men's (because it wouldn't be, if both sexes could use it) and then it wouldn't be invalidating to TW.

Just like there are women who aren't keen on men using their spaces for reasons of privacy, or even because their religious beliefs madate private spaces, there are men who feel the same way. Safety is not the only issue. It only requires one man to fell this way, in any case - men are allowed sex segregated toilets by law as well.

I'm not sure why anyone is talking about butch women, as it wasn't brought up. There are transmen who pass pretty darn well and do not look like slight boyish women.

Perhaps they "ought" to be able to use women's toilets, but people do realise that if we are moving to a clear sex based toilet/change room expectation, it's entirely possible a balding person with no breasts and a full beard might be seen as a pervy predator in the ladies. And might not want to give an account of why they really ought to be there to a stranger, or a police officer.

As for "ought to be able to use them" what's the suggestion when someone asks them if they are actually entitled to be there?

A single toilet might seem like a better option to such a person in some places - like Jellyslice said, people are not maths. It's a much better solution than mixing sexes, and single toilets are useful for a number of other situations as well.

Given how upset people are when others blithely give away women's single sex toilets to men, I am really surprised how many are advocating giving away men's.

Given how upset people are when others blithely give away women's single sex toilets to men, I am really surprised how many are advocating giving away men's.

Can you post a link to the online discussions that men are having about this? I've never actually seen any, so I'm assuming it's not an important issue for them. And as has been repeatedly pointed out, the safety issue doesn't work both ways.

On the other hand, many men are more than happy to laugh at women who want privacy from men (see the current thread about Nish Kumar for example). If the idea of privacy is so hilarious to them, they're obviously not concerned about privacy for themselves.

Has anyone asked the men? Maybe they won't care.

I was at the Hammersmith Lyric last year. The toilets that serve the bar area had been made unisex. "4 cubicles" and "2 cubicles, 4 urinals", or words to that effect. Very unpleasant, entitled behaviour from the men who went into the ladies' loos (ie the ones with only cubicles). But what went on outside the loos was interesting. I hung around in the corridor afterwards to watch.

The ladies' was the first door on the corridor, and the vast majority of men went directly into it (I suppose that some must have been familiar with the Lyric and went straight to the toilet that they were used to using). About 2/3 boggled and backed out again. A few checked the door signage, and went back in again, but most went looking for the men's loos. All the older men and many of the younger men did not want to use the women's loos.

So, from my 15-20 minute experience, I'd say most men do not want to share a public toilet with women. And those that do, relish the experience.

In any case, when only one set of toilets is changed to unisex, is it ever the one that provides facilities for both sexes? I wonder why that might be? Could it be because when men shout both "I want" and "I don't want" they are listened to?

Helen Belcher (Trans Media Watch & LibDem LGBT+) for Gaystar News:
27 APR 2020
'UK government's attack on trans Bathroom Use will drive people underground'

(extract)

"When I transitioned in 2004, and before that while I was working out whether transition would be right for me, use of women’s loos and women’s changing rooms was essential.

Access to public toilets is vital for basic everyday tasks like shopping or meeting friends.

Access to changing rooms is vital when you’re fitting yourself out with a new wardrobe. And changing gender usually requires a whole new wardrobe.

Going to the gents wearing a dress or a skirt – well, I won’t even go there, because I didn’t.

The whole idea, when you’re feeling fragile and vulnerable, of knowingly walking into a place where you are, at best, going to “get looks”, is just so outlandish that it doesn’t bear consideration.

For me, in the early days when I was considering transition, clothes shopping was always with a female friend. They provided good company as well as essential style advice. (continues)

But the reality is that Truss is looking to strike out the existing protections of trans women within women’s spaces, the impact of which would be to remove trans women from public life.

If you can’t use public loos, you can’t travel or go shopping anywhere. It drives trans people underground. (continues)
www.gaystarnews.com/article/uk-governments-attack-on-trans-bathroom-use-will-drive-people-underground/