Magdalen Berns and my 19 year old daughter: she saw the light!

[happyhuman123]

both of my teens attend very Stonewall friendly, woke schools/Colleges and and seem completely blind to any concept other than "TWAW" hashtag no debate etc. I've never ever forced my views on them, but they understand how I feel. It only comes up in conversation when they raise it and I calmly state my position. I don't try to persuade them they're wrong, at all. They've always said they think it's 'mean and unkind' not to believe that TWAW etc and that they really don't get the need for sex segregated spaces, for women to have their own sport without men etc. For them, it boils down to kindness and being nice, because using 'correct pronouns' (even when they're incorrect) is the 'right thing to do' etc etc. That's fine. Their choice, etc.
Had a very long chat with my 19 year old yesterday. She was asking lots of questions and I could hear/sense the cognitive dissonance. It seemed that she was talking with the intention to understand and learn, rather than talking with the intention to rant and repeat the same old mantras. I told her about Magdalen Berns and suggested she watch her videos.
She watched all of them. She came to speak to me today and said that she realised that Magdalen was right and she agrees with every word she says. She says that she's changed her mind on the whole subject.
She also said that it's a big shame she can't say this in public or to her friends as she'd be shouted down.
Rest in peace Magdalen, wonderful woman who helped my daughter to see what I've been gently trying to get her to understand for ages. I didn't want to force feed my views to her, wanted her to reach her own conclusions and am so glad she has.

Magdalen is an legend and I welcome your DD to the light side. Maybe in time she will share Magdalen's videos on and find others in agreement.

DS also 19 hasn't swallowed any of it but he has to play the game.... it would be absolutely impossible to say anything at uni. He did however strike a small blow when a lecturer asked him his pronouns... he replied by raising an eyebrow... the lecturer raised an eyebrow back and ticked the he/him box! Small steps...

That's interesting OP. Any sense of what tweaked your daughter to start asking questions about it?

Also show her the ugliness - the not ‘being kind/nice’ - the oozed our when she died. You see the real guts of character there.

I love that Magdalen Berns is still reaching people and making sense. .

I think about Magdalen Berns often. To be so brilliantly insightful, perfectly put, brave and hilarious at the same time takes a special person. We should all be more Magdalen.

God I absolutely loved her.

Both my teenage sons have seen her videos, and Ds1's sixth form had Stonewall in back in January, we talked about it before hand and sadly agreed that he had best just keep his mouth shut out of fear.

Like Awning's son, he has learned to play the game.

If you think about it; that people have to keep silent about an ovbious material reality is mindblowing. I never thought Id see the like.

That's interesting OP. Any sense of what tweaked your daughter to start asking questions about it?

She was talking to her friend on FaceTime and I overheard her talking about being kind and accepting pronouns because it was the kind thing to do. It kicked off a conversation about female socialisation and the need to be kind and why do we pretend to believe things we know are not true? And a discussion about gender/sex. Despite having straight A* grades through school/college, she genuinely didn't seem to understand the difference and why it was important. She knew about Mermaids, but didn't know some of the history behind it and the CEO's connection and trips to the USA/Thailand, etc.
She has non binary friends and has always thought (in her words)
" it's silly, non binary is ridiculous'
but has always gone along with it and pretended that she gets it.
And I think she just reached the point where she was sick of lying to herself.

It kicked off a conversation about female socialisation and the need to be kind and why do we pretend to believe things we know are not true?

20/4/2020 Helen Saxby 'Why Can’t Women Be More Nice?'

(extract)
How nice do women have to be?

Well, very, it seems, if we want to hold on to our rights. I’m talking about the rights which are already enshrined in law, by way of the Equality Act 2010, updating and incorporating the sex equality legislation from the Sex Discrimination Act 1975. Rights for women are based on sex, and they always have been, because there is no other legal or material or commonly recognised way of differentiating between men and women. Despite recent assertions from many lobbyists, we have never had to resort to looking inside someone’s pants to distinguish one sex from the other. The common understanding of what male and female categories mean, and the difference between them, has always sufficed to ensure that laws intended to level the playing field for women are actually used to benefit women. They may not always have been adequate to the task, but it’s always been clear who they’re for.

Women are expected to be nice in all walks of life, it’s true, and female socialisation works to prop up this expectation by a system of rewards and punishments as girls grow up. However, recently there has been a ratcheting-up of the demands that women be nice specifically in the arena of defending women’s rights. Being nice has become the number one demand made of feminists, above being fair or knowledgable or determined for example, and I wonder why it’s so important now? (continues)

concludes:
Is it still ‘unkind’ to insist that there is a sex difference between men and women and that it is straightforward (and vital) to categorise it? Is it still ‘lacking in compassion’ to analyse and assess a woman’s greater risk of harm according to gendered norms visited on her sex class? Is it still ‘bigoted’ to ask that women continue to be protected in law when these sex and gender differences in outcomes for men and women are now being highlighted so clearly?

Well, apparently yes.

We have everything to lose, and I’m beginning to think that this is the point. The demand that women be ‘nice’ and ‘kind’ goes further than just being a matter of tone policing, it has an impact on what women are allowed to say, and how much we can expect to be listened to when we say it. Women are not just expected to be nice whilst fighting for our rights, we’re expected to be nice instead of fighting for our rights.

Here’s an idea: just for a change the world could try being nicer and kinder to women."

notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2020/04/20/why-cant-women-be-more-nice/

She has non binary friends and has always thought (in her words)
" it's silly, non binary is ridiculous'
but has always gone along with it and pretended that she gets it.

Same with DS. He even has a very good friend who told him of "their" plans to fully transition after progressing through being pan and then non binary. Poor kid. DS was adamant he couldn't possibly say anything negative to him. DS is now unwittingly part of the lie this kid is being sold.

thats lovely that magdalen berns is still reaching people.
and good for your dd - it takes strength to u-turn and admit it.

my kids are all gc and dh lives in fear that they will go public and get in trouble at school.

The fear that poster's children have about expressing their views amplifies what a stranglehold this totalitarian movement has on them.
It is so important that #nodebate continues to be challenged so that we are able to speak up and safeguard children and protect women's rights to safety, privacy until our children are able to voice their views openly.

But I wonder just how many young people are just like this secretly GC but fearing to out themselves because they think everyone else will pile on them while everyone else thinks exactly the same? At least three have been mentioned in this thread. What if there are a whole lot more? How can they stand up and be counted?

We need to develop some kind of secret sign so that people especially those in schools and unis can recognise each other and come out together. Otherwise the lie is just perpetuated.

Something like the fish early Christians would display.

Maybe the clown fish?

nauticant That just made laugh. Much needed.

As does your username for me Cunty.

I wonder if instead of surgery's about 'transphobic' bullying in schools and colleges and the 'teacher training' that compounds the silencing of children it would be worthwhile carrying out a surgery to assess how many children, teenagers, young adults feel that they cannot speak freely about their own GC views.

It would have to be anonymous but it would show some interesting numbers. It's arguable that the silencing of those forming their views and forced speech has an adverse affect on their confidence and self-esteem that can impact them further in life.

But n one cares about that do they? Only the 'trans' students get pandered to.

Since I saw the light about what the TRA movement is up to and the horrific ramifications for youngsters of both sexes, for women, and for lesbians and gay men, I’ve really started to reassess things that I previously saw as positive.

Notably, my older son’s secondary school was very LGBT-friendly and had even won awards from Stonewall for their work, with some of the kids being taken on a trip to London to accept “Stonewall champion” awards on behalf of the school. ( [anger] - yes I know now!) This for a school in a very working-class socially-challenged area. At that time, when we got him and his brother into that school, I saw this as further evidence that the school was nurturing, something we desperately needed as all three of my adopted kids have had terrible experiences at mainstream secondary schools (for reasons not to do with them having two dads or stuff like that).

Now, though, I look back and am really concerned because of everything I’ve learned here and elsewhere about Stonewall and the #nodebate movement and the real dangers it presents for some kids and their families.

I’m thinking of going right to the top. The school concerned is part of a national chain of academy schools set up by a fairly well-known Christian guy, who is disliked by many fellow evangelicals for his liberal views about sexuality. I am convinced that he has encouraged diversity training at the schools for very well-motivated reasons. But he may be largely unaware of the issues highlighted by, say, Transgender Trend.

My kids are no longer at the school so perhaps this would be a good time to contact him. And I’d be in a good place as I’m a gay dad myself who has a very positive view of this chain of schools generally. I wonder what will happen?

GCGayDad
Hopefully you'd have some influence.
Political lobby groups have no business being in schools trying to influence a school's practice. The Stonewall champions programme is shocking. 11 year olds being invited to attend mixed age "LGBT" groups alongside 15 - 18 year olds. It defies belief that teachers in schools are not questioning the potential safeguarding issues these might raise. Not to mention inviting in random adults (mainly born male) from pressure groups to advise on turning toilets changing rooms and showers into mixed sex facilities. I am so pleased that these issues will be explored in the courts when the Oxfordshire trans school guidelines are challenged. It's long overdue that the demands of these groups to remove the right of others to boundaries, privacy and safety from the opposite sex were forensically examined.

I am convinced that he has encouraged diversity training at the schools for very well-motivated reasons. But he may be largely unaware of the issues highlighted by, say, Transgender Trend.

Safe Schools Alliance also have excellent resources and are worth sharing with SLT, school governors, academy managers etc

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/about/who-we-are/

I wonder if instead of surgery's about 'transphobic' bullying in schools and colleges and the 'teacher training' that compounds the silencing of children it would be worthwhile carrying out a surgery to assess how many children, teenagers, young adults feel that they cannot speak freely about their own GC views.

I would just be very pleased to see even half the time spent with students on diversity issues in schools spent instead on diversity of thought, intellectual freedom, and similar things. Intellectual freedom is a basic human right but I think most students really don't understand what that means. They learn you can't fire someone for being black, but seem unaware that you can't fire them for having a viewpoint you don't like about something you think is important.

I’m thinking of going right to the top. The school concerned is part of a national chain of academy schools set up by a fairly well-known Christian guy, who is disliked by many fellow evangelicals for his liberal views about sexuality. I am convinced that he has encouraged diversity training at the schools for very well-motivated reasons. But he may be largely unaware of the issues highlighted by, say, Transgender Trend.

My kids are no longer at the school so perhaps this would be a good time to contact him. And I’d be in a good place as I’m a gay dad myself who has a very positive view of this chain of schools generally. I wonder what will happen?

As a man your chances of being heard and your view point given serious consideration and respect are a statistically lot higher than those of a woman raising the same concerns. As a gay man it will be more difficult to write you off as a bigot. So it is great that you are willing to make the effort, and I really hope you'll be back to let us know how it goes.

It's an infuriatingly unfair truth that women's voices are often dismissed or ignored, and men stepping up are listened to in a very different way.

Good luck!

First of all, thanks for your encouraging comments about approaching the chain of academy schools to get them to examine their “diversity” training. I will pursue this when I have the mental and emotional energy and report back.

Separately, I think there was a really important point made in the last few posts on this thread - notably by @Lamahaha and @truthisarevolutionaryact :

The fear that poster's children have about expressing their views amplifies what a stranglehold this totalitarian movement has on them.
It is so important that #nodebate continues to be challenged so that we are able to speak up and safeguard children and protect women's rights to safety, privacy until our children are able to voice their views openly.

I share the worry that it is simply becoming impossible for people in, say, schools or even more in university settings to even whisper anything that questions the extremist TRA narrative without risking their own rights to study or be part of the student community.

Look what happened to the postgrad Angelos in this thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3887531-Former-student-Angelos-Sofocleous-receives-apology-from-University-after-transphobia-controversy

This was a highly intelligent student committed to rational debate and to equality, and someone who was deeply involved in student life, working on the editorial team of two university newspapers. All he did was agree with a tweet saying that “women don’t have penises” and he was vilified by the students’ union, his own academic department, and by an external society (the Humanists) of which he was an active member. He has still never had proper apologies 18 months on and had to stand down from all his roles.

What hope is there for ordinary students or, for that matter, employees or members of all kinds of groups to raise their head above the parapet?

I share the worry that it is simply becoming impossible for people in, say, schools or even more in university settings to even whisper anything that questions the extremist TRA narrative without risking their own rights to study or be part of the student community.

Its why it is important for parents/carers etc to approach SLT, school governors, college & university administration with the Safeguarding concerns, if they feel able to.

Tracy Shaw from Safe Schools Alliance explains the Safeguarding issues very well in this interview with Posie Parker. SSA provide resources including letter templates.

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/resources-2/