To be valid.

[FloralBunting]

Some of the jargon around Genderism and the wider woke worldview is ripe for mockery, and I don't think there's much wrong with that, but it's not the most useful response.

One of the terms which interests me, because of it's ubiquitous nature, is 'valid'. Lots of people talk about being validated, via their identity claims, and the basic demand to say TWAW, TMAM, etc. is a flashpoint from the genderist perspective because by not agreeing, we do not 'validate' the identity, which is accorded a power akin to an act of genocide.

I've been trying to unpick what is going on here, in the hopes of some sort of understanding. What is a a person desiring when they want to be 'valid', and 'validated' in their identity?

In terms of bare etymology, valid springs from strong, so there is a follow through here of someone's ideas about themselves being 'made strong' by the validation they receive.

But I think even most adherents to these ideas will eventually acknowledge that if you need external support for something you claim is inherent within you, then you're not really strengthening anything, you're just putting in flimsy scaffolding, dependent on others.

I'm beginning to pick up that there is something else going on with this plaintive cry 'I am valid!' What I'm seeing is a group of people who are so crippled with insecurities they doubt their worth as human beings. People who are looking at a big, frightening world and shouting "I mean something!"

In essence, I'm seeing this particular bit of the jargon as a very specific part of the religious impulse that underpins so much of the Genderist, Identity-focused movement. When you see people repeating that phrase "You are valid", they are offering each other the same sort of comfort more traditional religious believers offer when they say "God loves you, you are not forgotten, you matter."

I suspect this is why the simple, logical discussions about the material reality of sex don't really cut any ice - you are trying to talk to a different part of the human psyche with a scientific argument. Genderist ideas arise from a different place. They may co-opt a few science-lite ideas, like a Creationist from Answers in Genesis might quote a few scientific journals, but the heart of these ideas is philosophical - it's a search for meaning and personal truth.

Which is probably why, as tempting as mockery may be, it's ultimately counterproductive in actually pulling people away from the damaging ideas at the heart of Genderism that have such devastating real life consequences.

So a young woman who rejects the prevailing culture of what it means to be 'a woman' and demands that, as an Non Binary person, she be acknowledged as 'valid', with attendant pronouns, is doing more than just being a bit controlling. She's trying to assert that she matters.

It's an existential, religious cry, not a statement about material reality. We're all, both genderists and those of us who reject gender, making category errors when we don't grasp this, which is why so many of us are talking past each other.

It does not answer the question but . . . I met a young woman who has detransitioned and who had "Valid" tattooed around her throat when she detransitioned as, I think, a sort of "two fingers to trans from a detrans"

Thomasin Pick - she might explain it in one of these videos:

"Detrans Women Lead Manchester Pride and Speak at Lesbian Strength March, Leeds | Charlie & Thomasin"

"A Woman's Place is marching on together (Leeds, 22nd November 2019) Thomasin Pick"
(terrible audio!)

"Thousands Of "Trans" Teens Want To DETRANSITION... (Women, Lesbians, Homophobia)"

Thing is, if your “identity” doesn't correspond to reality, it isn't valid, is it?

If you said “Our starting point is that the earth is flat #nodebate,” no theory that you built around that fallacy would be valid, however long you shouted that it was.

I do agree with your argument about the psychological security blanket though.

I think you’re right. It’s often just a call to be acknowledged, to be noticed, to belong and very much does appeal to people who feel lost. The ‘choosing’ of their gender is also an attempt to feel in control of something. It’s a hugely psychologically-driven need like attachment.

BlackForestCake granted, but that's my point - the term 'valid' here has nothing really to do with the definition of the word as we understand it. It's almost irrelevant what the word is - it's function as jargon here is to assert that the person matters, has been noticed and acknowledged.

but . . . I met a young woman who has detransitioned and who had "Valid" tattooed around her throat

I think I saw her interviewed on Sky news. The tattoo really struck me and I thought it was very clear she had struggled with issues of self worth and was vulnerable to believing that her struggles would be over if she embarked upon transition. I think the aggressive marketing of 'trans' at young women has encouraged and exploited those who might benefit from other therapeutic treatment. It's still shocking to me that this is actually happening in the West in the 21st century. Cases like Keira Bell. It's a frickin outrage.

Floral I had a similar thought while typing a response to the NB thread.

In my mind, it is just one of the manifestations of the effect of social media and the rise of ‘personal branding’ of the influencer. And quite a narrow slice of life overall.

I was very active in social media for work until I just felt overexposed last year and dropped out after 10 years. However, as a marketer of old I have watched this concept of personal branding develop. If you are very active on social media, and want to noticed as an individual, it is very hard to get that attention. And sometimes this means you don’t feel ‘valid’ if you are not getting the likes, the attention, the follows.

In the past 4 years, I noticed the under 35s changing the way they work with their ‘influencing’. At least, that is the age group for my relevant sector. The sexing up of the genre I was involved in (which had at last toned down the sexy imagery in advertising their products) was very noticeable. The women and men were all doing sexy lifestyle shots featuring themselves to gain those likes and followers. I believe it was something learned from the beauty and fashion sector. It just felt like a whole lot of pressure to fit a gendered stereotyping that I grew up fighting.

I can certainly see how hard it must be for young men and women to find any sense of community when these stereotypes are so pushed in their face. Ie to be noticed you should adopt this look, do this thing and it was ‘gender’ based.

However, rather than fighting the stereotypes and gendered thinking, it seems some are opting out. That doesn’t help and makes the situation more complicated than it needs to be.

But this is just from a social media perspective. Just a small part of the overall issues.

That's an interesting insight, Floral, and I'll try and hold it in the front of my mind when watching/reading trans people's statements.

A friend's son has transitioned. I've not accepted his FB friend request because he's all about the rainbows and the lipstick and it sets my teeth on edge. However, I've always had sympathy for him and his siblings as they grew up in a chaotic household with difficult parents. Holding your idea in mind when I see his posts will be helpful.

I think marketing is a significant part of this, given that we are in such a consumerist, capitalist society. You only have to think of famous slogans "You're worth it" etc.

In the current crisis, the connectedness of social media has been a boon for many people, but I wonder how much of this basic human need for connection has been warped by a culture that lionizes fame, attention, and the endless dopamine hit of the reaction button.

As a person of faith myself, I have often wondered why so many people abhor the idea of a divine being giving them life and purpose, particularly the idea of a prescribed moral framework/rule book or ‘law’ that they must (or try to) follow, and choose to believe instead that freedom comes from always being true to one’s self... But then, after doing this, constantly spend time comparing their ‘self’ to the inconsistent, judgemental or apathetic opinion of others, both groups and individuals.

The examples of purity spirals just go to show that the ‘rules’ that humans make for each other are more restrictive and confusing than any religion and offer no hope of redemption. So the person tries to persuade, force or shame others to validate their own worldview, forgetting that in the world where oneself is ones own God, each other person is doing the same.

At the end of it all I’d rather stand as an open handed loser before God, than constantly struggling to be accepted or considered worthy by other people.

I remember years ago there was a badge (I'm not sure of its origin)
IALAC
which stood for
I am lovable and capable
maybe we should just give everyone one of these?

Well, I think understanding that human beings have a general religious impulse is a useful thing to acknowledge, whether we have a personal faith or not.

If we don't believe in metaphysical realities ourselves, noticing that the human animal has a propensity to search for meaning in their existence is a useful thing to notice, because it profoundly affects so many aspects of human culture and society.

Everyone has faith in something...

And everyone seeks fulfilment somewhere, like you said floral, the momentary dopamine shot.

BovaryX - I don't know if I explained that properly

Thomasin got the "Valid" tattoo after/as she detransitioned, ie. as a gesture of rejection of the "trans validation" narrative.

If we don't believe in metaphysical realities ourselves, noticing that the human animal has a propensity to search for meaning in their existence is a useful thing to notice, because it profoundly affects so many aspects of human culture and society.

Arguably to be human is to seek meaning, I'm not convinced I've ever met anyone who really believed, and behaved, as if there was in fact no meaning. The few who do behave as if that is true are monstrous.

But yes, I think you are right about the idea of validity. There is a strong connection to meaning as well IMO, a lot of younger people have grown up in a culture, and received an education, which is very light on the idea of meaning, either the meaning of their own existence, or social meaning. Liberal political culture has also really hollowed out our sense of social existence which seems incredibly important in forming a sense of who we are, we always understand ourselves through the lens of shared culture and values and yet we are now told that we don't really have shared culture and values. Even sense of rootedness in place has been hollowed out for many through the move to the mobile capitalist workplace.

I'd suggest that all the "identities" are now just about the only way many people have to assert themselves as real beings with meaning. The only lens they have to see who they are and attempt self understanding. It does certainly tie in with branding, sports teams, the extra curricular activities kids join, that is how they decide who they are.

We have a real unmet need for an ability to strongly root our sense of self. That's always going to have a social element but it can also be rooted strongly in the individual under the right circumstances which gives a lot of mental and emotional resilience.

I’m glad that I live in rural Scotland, and raised my DDs in a village where the church, Sunday school and primary school all gave them a secure core belief of being loved by God, faults and all, and that they were known and valued by the village community.
My DDs are now 29 and 30, and are mature well rounded individuals with a strong sense of security and healthy self esteem. They are not susceptible to the vain silliness of social media or celebrity culture, and do not need to seek validation or approval from others.
I feel very sorry for the current generation of teenagers, many of whom have been raised in a religious and moral vacuum, with no firm anchor in a world of superficial values. If the only feedback they get is “likes” on social media, who can blame them for taking wrong turns in a search for meaning or attention?

In many cases I think "validate me" simply means ''agree with me".

I agree with the PP who says that those loudly demanding external validation from others lack the supportive mental or social structure such that belief in themselves is enough, which is sad. Or they know what they are insisting upon is a lie - 'invalid' - and protesteth too much, which is bad.

It is interesting that a period of child-rearing that so loudly insisted on shoring up the ability of the child to feel values or good - self-esteem being pushed, inclusivity and participation for all, an emphasis on kids choosing their own way, bodily autonomy, attachment parenting - had such opposite results as expected in terms of producing adults with significant inner resources.

Personaly I can respect it as a 'personal truth', its when it forced as an objective reality that it becomes toxic.

This is a facinating thread, some brilliant posts.

about the paradox of children reared in a self affarming way having poor sense of self. maybe its because self esteem/confidence comes from overcoming diffuculties, so if you make sure young people have few real problems then they never get the chance to overcome anything?

Do any of us really matter? I think you’ve missed the point.

Maslow’s theory of human needs places esteem as a psychologically essential human need. When people are crying out for validity they’re actually seeking esteem. They either have higher needs for esteem than others or they are not getting much self esteem/external esteem in the first place. It’s basically an attempt to get respect. Of course there’s nothing wrong in this but it would be more fruitful to seek respect by being useful to others in some way (e.g. being very kind, creating something that people admire, etc).

This not only explains the behaviour of people seeking to enforce pronouns of choice but also explains why most women who will to a greater or lesser extent reject the gender normative construction of womanhood don’t feel the need to proclaim their validity. I don’t remove body hair, this doesn’t correspond with western constructs of femininity, I don’t feel the need to identify as non-binary and demand validation because I can rise above social constructs thanks to all my self esteem and all the respect I receive from the people around me. Not everyone is so lucky. When someone tells me they prefer a gender neutral pronoun I just humour them instead of being an arsehole about it.

My understanding of the self-esteem argument (from a child psychologist who visited a group I was in in the 90s) was that if your child was doing something you didn't want, rather than just saying 'no don't do that', you said 'I want you to do this' or 'do it this way' and told them what you actually want them to do instead.

By saying 'no' you undermine them, confuse them as to what they actually should be doing, and if you make a fuss about saying no, they will want to do it all the more.

This was more for toddlers - as they get older you can get them to think through processes and come to the desired conclusion.

It was probably more important for the sensitive child who might, when bellowed 'no' at, become totally confused and give up trying.

This eventually seemed to be reinterpreted into not ever being able to ever say 'no' to your child, ie that they can't do/have something etc and should get lots of praise, in the popular press world.

If anything, this gives the child a chance to understand what is expected and to then achieve that, thus building self-esteem.

My identity is valid.

It makes me think of two very different Real Life scenarios:

1. People of non-Christian faith living in a Christian-centric society. For example, the first Jewish MP. He was elected shortly after Victoria became queen, but was unable to take his seat in Parliament for 10 years, despite being re-elected in every poll during this time, because he refused to swear the Christian oath on the Christian Bible. It took a change in the law for a Jew to be recognised as a valid MP.

2. My brother and I, in our 50s, still vying for recognition and reward from our parents. I have learned to recognise this in myself, and to try to step away from this ingrained behaviour, but my db is still oblivious to it. Or maybe he values it. I don't know.

This is a really interesting thread.

I do struggle with the constant need for 'validation' especially on social media, and I think that this is something unique to a generation growing up increasingly influenced by SM, I know some young people who's whole self worth is tied up in how many likes or follows they get, it can't be a good thing.