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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To be valid.

128 replies

FloralBunting · 15/04/2020 12:49

Some of the jargon around Genderism and the wider woke worldview is ripe for mockery, and I don't think there's much wrong with that, but it's not the most useful response.

One of the terms which interests me, because of it's ubiquitous nature, is 'valid'. Lots of people talk about being validated, via their identity claims, and the basic demand to say TWAW, TMAM, etc. is a flashpoint from the genderist perspective because by not agreeing, we do not 'validate' the identity, which is accorded a power akin to an act of genocide.

I've been trying to unpick what is going on here, in the hopes of some sort of understanding. What is a a person desiring when they want to be 'valid', and 'validated' in their identity?

In terms of bare etymology, valid springs from strong, so there is a follow through here of someone's ideas about themselves being 'made strong' by the validation they receive.

But I think even most adherents to these ideas will eventually acknowledge that if you need external support for something you claim is inherent within you, then you're not really strengthening anything, you're just putting in flimsy scaffolding, dependent on others.

I'm beginning to pick up that there is something else going on with this plaintive cry 'I am valid!' What I'm seeing is a group of people who are so crippled with insecurities they doubt their worth as human beings. People who are looking at a big, frightening world and shouting "I mean something!"

In essence, I'm seeing this particular bit of the jargon as a very specific part of the religious impulse that underpins so much of the Genderist, Identity-focused movement. When you see people repeating that phrase "You are valid", they are offering each other the same sort of comfort more traditional religious believers offer when they say "God loves you, you are not forgotten, you matter."

I suspect this is why the simple, logical discussions about the material reality of sex don't really cut any ice - you are trying to talk to a different part of the human psyche with a scientific argument. Genderist ideas arise from a different place. They may co-opt a few science-lite ideas, like a Creationist from Answers in Genesis might quote a few scientific journals, but the heart of these ideas is philosophical - it's a search for meaning and personal truth.

Which is probably why, as tempting as mockery may be, it's ultimately counterproductive in actually pulling people away from the damaging ideas at the heart of Genderism that have such devastating real life consequences.

So a young woman who rejects the prevailing culture of what it means to be 'a woman' and demands that, as an Non Binary person, she be acknowledged as 'valid', with attendant pronouns, is doing more than just being a bit controlling. She's trying to assert that she matters.

It's an existential, religious cry, not a statement about material reality. We're all, both genderists and those of us who reject gender, making category errors when we don't grasp this, which is why so many of us are talking past each other.

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MrGHardy · 15/04/2020 16:58

It is very much a religious like aspect. And it very much is about others validating you. Because what good would it otherwise do? If they are NB, they are NB, no one can take that from them. But what people can do, is not acknowledge how special that is.

Antibles · 15/04/2020 17:10

I think some children who have been brought up that way have just never been given a firm 'no' and learnt to accept other people's boundaries. It's quite a shock to them when they encounter the boundaries of people outside the family who won't bend to their will or engage in tedious negotiation. Some of the playdates we had... Some kids adjust fairly quickly and turn into decent sorts but others continue to struggle.

MrGHardy · 15/04/2020 17:16

"I think marketing is a significant part of this, given that we are in such a consumerist, capitalist society. "

And that is the irony, the same people, at least in the US, who are deadset on gender and validating people, also attack the whole capitalistic and materialistic society that is so prevalent there.

"Arguably to be human is to seek meaning, I'm not convinced I've ever met anyone who really believed, and behaved, as if there was in fact no meaning. The few who do behave as if that is true are monstrous."

But it is true. You are nothing in the universe. You might try to give it a meaning, be that God, or be it doing 'good' (whatever you understand that to mean) or whatever, but there is no overarching meaning, no grand plan to anyone's life. You are born and then you die. And it's scary to think about that hence why people ignore it, and so many strive to an identity, be it God or the gender fairy.

"When someone tells me they prefer a gender neutral pronoun I just humour them instead of being an arsehole about it."

In my opinion is the person trying to shame me into validating them who is the arsehole. It is the same as if a religious person demands I validate God. Or why don't we just humor flat earthers then?

Singasonga · 15/04/2020 17:27

I think it's about social esteem for how you choose to present yourself to the world, mixed in with feeling like an outsider (so, different from the wider group) who nonetheless really craves a sign that they're accepted by the wider group.

It's a pretty common youth subculture thing, but I do think the internet has blown it up and somehow mated it with a ferocious sense of injustice in a way that I don't think even the put-upon goths and punks of yesteryear managed. It's also why I can afford to be amused, as I don't think the proponents realise that one day, they too will be the "normies/suits/cishets/basic bitches/Karens/muggles," who failed to make the world perfect just in time for it to be inherited by the next wave of idealistic youth.

FloralBunting · 15/04/2020 17:33

Well no, ReginaBambina on a purely materialistic basis being personally recognized as a being that matters is not an objective reality. That's not really the point I was making, so I haven't missed anything there. I'm talking about the motivation behind the demand for 'validation' and what that means to the individuals making the demand, and how those who are a bit baffled by the strength of reaction to this demand not being met can respond.

It's all very well saying an individual can rise above this need because they are well balanced and get support and respect, but the issue here is not so much that those demanding 'validation' do not receive the basic respect that all humans need to be psychologically balanced, it's that they have gone beyond that personal psychological need and focused their energy on having others comply, rather than dealing with their personal issues.

And, FWIW, on a more general note, 'validation' as an idea isn't something I've seen solely connected to the Genderists. It has aspects in all sorts of places. A lot of us talk in terms of people 'invalidating our experiences', and what we seem to mean is someone responding to our experiences as though they don't matter. That can often be about context - it may be that our experience of something isn't relevant to an issue, so maybe it doesn't matter. Or someone has their feelings 'invalidated' - it's fine to acknowledge feelings, but how we feel isn't always relevant to a situation, and feelings are transitory and unreliable for some things too.

The context of what I'm talking about in this thread is this idea of validation as something to hang your entire self on. From my own perspective, part of being a mature individual is coming to terms with being contradicted, and getting used to not being liked by everyone without having a tantrum or attempting to manipulative others.

It's difficult to engage with people who haven't yet reached that understanding, and I agree with various PP that the child rearing ideas of the past couple of decades may well be a factor in all this.

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2ndStar · 15/04/2020 17:55

I don’t see it as any different from any of the other ways in which people feel they don’t count unless some one counts them.

None are healthy. Your sense of who you are, your worth and your beliefs should come from within and stand up to challenge and debate. You don’t suddenly become more or less intelligent/capable/attractive/religious/ atheist depending on who is looking at you, or thinking about you and grading you.

Singasonga · 15/04/2020 18:06

Are you sure it's not just a way of reassuring people that they're normal enough to belong, without using the term "normal" because that's no longer viewed as inclusive enough?

Goosefoot · 15/04/2020 18:06

But it is true. You are nothing in the universe.

That's a perspective on reality, but by no means the only one that can be rationally defended. I think the opposite, that each individual and element of being is of infinite worth and carries infinite meaning.

FloralBunting · 15/04/2020 18:06

2ndStar well, I agree that it's part of a bigger picture of insecurities.

But can any of us say our beliefs, and sense of self and worth come from entirely within? I think perhaps part of the problem here is an over-reliance on our personal perceptions over and above the realities of the world around us.

I'm not disagreeing, btw, I'm just finding this a useful springboard to think about ways in which we could actually use these ideas to make some of these issues better.

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FloralBunting · 15/04/2020 18:10

Singasonga, you raise a good point. I think we read a claim of someone being 'Non binary' and demanding we validate it as someone claiming to be special and distinctive, and actually it may well be a plea for reassurance that they are a completely regular human being, not an peculiar oddity.

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Goosefoot · 15/04/2020 18:12

But can any of us say our beliefs, and sense of self and worth come from entirely within? I think perhaps part of the problem here is an over-reliance on our personal perceptions over and above the realities of the world around us.

That, but also I suspect that we can't totally derive our sense of self just from within ourselves. That's part of the atomic view of society. We always see ourselves in some sense through others, or see our place in society or the world in relation to others. Children see themselves constrained by the nature of real things and parents holding them to realities is part of that. So you learn not to walk into traffic but also how to behave socially and morally. But kids also learn to see themselves as lovable through their parents love, and that can give them a tremendous sense of their inherent worth, even as they have to deal with unchangeable external realities. Children without those resources can overcome that beginning sometimes, in terms of their own resilience, but I'm not sure many do without some kind of external support.

MrsDoylesTeaBags · 15/04/2020 18:14

I think a lot of it is (I'm really crap at explaining myself sometimes). We all have an view of ourselves as we wish to present ourselves to the world now the world doesn't always see us that way. In fact sometimes the world see us in a completely different light.

I think some people seek 'validation' because they so desperately want the world to 'accept them', others seek 'validation' as a way to impose their views on others. Does that make sense?

FloralBunting · 15/04/2020 18:18

It does, yes. As with most things, there is nuance here, and differing motives for the same thing.

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2ndStar · 15/04/2020 18:25

FloralBunting yes, I agree which is where the stands up to challenge and debate comes in. I should have added being open to challenge and prepared to consider new information. And from within is about personal knowledge and understanding. I’m not the same person I was as a young woman, the experiences and knowledge I’ve added have changed me. I’ve added knowledge and reduced the part that needed to be told something about myself to believe in it.

I don’t care as much now if anyone thinks I’m (insert attribute) or doesn’t think it. It doesn’t have the same impact anymore.

I’m an atheist, whether someone else thinks I’m going to hell is irrelevant to me. I also appreciate it is relevant to them.

I don’t care if someone finds me sexually attractive or not.

It doesn’t mean I only operate in a world where everyone holds the same opinions, I think that’s toxic validation.

2ndStar · 15/04/2020 18:28

I think some people seek 'validation' because they so desperately want the world to 'accept them', others seek 'validation' as a way to impose their views on others. Does that make sense?

Maybe it’s the same thing but reached a tipping point.

BeetrootRocks · 15/04/2020 18:33

The religion thing is interesting

I had a conversation with a friend recently and came to the idea that some people have a thing inside that makes them seek 'meaning' and some don't. I was saying to her that I don't have a spiritual bone in my body, I have no feeling that there must be 'something'. She was quite different. We were both brought up RC. I was thinking as well it's easier to be brought up in a (reasonable) religion so if you are spiritual you have a default even if you change it. Rather than to have none and try to find something later, if you do have this feeling of, there must be more.

Just a couple of thoughts.

A lot of this comes back to the point that we all experience life and think so differently and to even try to understand how other people think and why if it's totally alien to you is really hard and a lot of assumptions are made.

EG religious people sometimes say that artist lives must be lacking somehow
Or the threads on here about aphantasia with lots of people not able to understand that if that's your experience and you have (probably) xyz else going on, maybe you aren't missing out iyswim

So this phenomena is about seeking something in a materialist and sexist world?

BeetrootRocks · 15/04/2020 18:34

Atheist not artist!

MoleSmokes · 15/04/2020 18:35

Babdoc - you might be interested in this:

Queer Theory in Scottish Schools
The Highland Times, Feb 13 2020

By Doctor Bruce Scott.

They are coming for our kids, the Highland Times has warned, and so I thought it might be worth taking a closer look at Scotland's Queer theory inspired LGBT inclusive education.

This drive for “Queering the classroom” as it's called, has a big focus on trans - the idea that people can become the opposite sex, or identify with the opposite sex, or alternate a number of invented genders.

And, this philosophy spreads its tentacles across all aspects of the curriculum and specific sex education lessons.

The movers and shakers in this lobbying frenzy for children’s education come from people like the TIE campaign in Scotland (Time for Inclusive Education) as well as Stonewall, Mermaids Gender Transition Charity, and the plethora of LGBT/Sex education programs in England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland.

Queer theory/gender ideology and its application in schools can be summed up in an influential book published in 2009 called “INTERROGATING HETERONORMATIVITY IN PRIMARY SCHOOLS: THE WORK OF THE NO OUTSIDERS PROJECT”, edited by Renée DePalma and Elizabeth Atkinson.

Andrew Moffat contributed to this book.

For those who don’t know Moffat, he was the headmaster involved with introducing the No Outsiders LGBT educational curricula in Birmingham schools, which resulted in protests by mainly Muslim, but also Jewish and Christian parents; the protesters did not want this material being taught to their children.

Now, one many wonder, why are parents protesting this educational curriculum when the stated motive (told from the likes of Andrew Moffat) is to let children know that different people with different sexualities or genders exist?

It sounds harmless enough.

However, on closer examination of the No Outsiders philosophy, I suggest people become very much more cautious and a lot more curious.

The first clue is in the title of the book: “Interrogating heteronormativity in primary schools”.

Yes, primary schools; schools with children in them, not adults.
Bear this in mind.

A quick look at the objectives of the project, which was funded by the Economic and Social Research Council grant, takes us down the rabbit hole of Queer theory.

Its stated objectives were to understand the operation of “heteronormativity (heterosexual behaviour, lifestyle), its normalisation, and to develop means to challenge its normativity, in primary schools.

It wanted to develop teaching practices within the classroom so it could carry these objectives out.

Another more sinister aim of the project was, as the authors lamented, to address the omission in primary schools of sexuality, pleasure, bodies and desire which ordinarily, within educational settings with children is omitted (quite rightly in my opinion) to protect children.

The reasoning given to “correct” this omission was that it denies children engagement with vital information about sexualities, silences the sexual voice of children and erases their sexual agency.

These aims and concerns of the No Outsiders project are reiterated and re-emphasised with the authors’ aims of exploring how to make “safe spaces” in primary schools in which children can talk about sexualities; their parents’ sexualities, their parents’ friends’ sexualities and indeed the sexualities of the children.

Indeed, it is argued that teachers also should discuss their own sexualities.

The authors argue that by denying children and the teachers discussions about queer sexualities, it omits the inclusion of queer bodies, pleasures and desires, which if these queer sexualities were discussed, it would confound or confuse heterosexuality or heteronormativity.

An even darker aspect of No Outsiders lurks hidden in their manifesto for queering the classroom.

The overt disdain for heteronormativity is revealed in discussions of a need for the rejection of heterosexuality and reproduction.

They argue that there is a need to challenge reproductive futurism (human reproduction of children and its heterosexual nature) and that queering the classroom and human reproduction are at odds with each other.

Indeed, the rational for teaching children at all is questioned, as queer existences or lifestyles are antagonistic to a reproductive future; i.e., as in heteronormativity, where the future, child and family are valued.

In other words, the notion of the family, a biological Mum and Dad, heterosexuality, commitment to heterosexual monogamy, for one’s children and the future all need to be sacrificed on the altar of queer theory; the present, alternative sexualities (LGBT/Queer sexualities), alternative lifestyles (e.g., open relationships/polyamory), sex as only for pleasure or immediate gratification is the ideal of a queer utopia.

These ideas are perhaps appropriate for the realms of adult behaviour and lifestyle, but they are certainly not appropriate in a child’s classroom.

The Scottish government has pushed this agenda.

And who has pushed this agenda with them?

A group called the TIE campaign (Time for inclusive education) who seem to have the ear of Scottish Government and an inordinate amount of influence on its policies, and who have untroubled access to tour Scottish schools disseminating their brand of queer theory and gender ideology.

In light of recent events in Scottish politics, specifically the resignation of finance minister Derek Mackay (42) for his indiscretions of communicating with a 16-year-old boy, it is pragmatic to look at the background of Mackay and TIE, and the ideology of Queer theory.

Of course, quite rightly Mackay resigned when his activities came to light.

In the age of #Me Too, he really did not have a choice.

However, the muted condemnation by many SNP members and deflection from the scandal is quite revealing.

Many within the SNP and wider Scottish government and cross-party parliamentary group have campaigned enthusiastically for the LGBT inclusive education program in Scotland.

So did Derek Mackay.

However subdued or reluctant people were in condemning Mackay’s behaviour, one thing was clear, they could in no way condone it.

If this is the case, why are there inconsistencies in this story?
The TIE campaign, were very muted regarding the resignation of their supporter Derek Mackay.

If Mackay and his actions are so condemnable as shown by his resignation and the subsequent reactions of some MSP’s (even if muted by some), why do the TIE campaign not see the double standards retweeting a tweet from Rosshall Academy the day after the Mackay resignation, showing “icons” of LGBT history month, materials provided by the TIE campaign, which has a portrait of Harvey Milk, an American politician who had a liking for 16-year old boys.

One 16-year-old boy in particular was in a relationship with Milk in California where the age of consent in that state was 18 at the time-Milk was in his mid-30’s.

The boy had mental health issues and later committed suicide.
I am not sure what kind of message this puts out, but in light of recent events, I do not think it is appropriate to celebrate Harvey Milk.

It remains to be seen if Harvey Milk will be removed from their gallery of “icons” and the materials TIE give to schools.

I also wonder if schools will show some common sense and stop celebrating Harvey Milk?

The driving force of queer theory in queering the primary school (including transgender ideology) is the pushing and transgressing of sexual boundaries.

This includes transgressing the boundaries of age and sexualities (i.e., LGBT) and the boundary of the natural human body (i.e., transgender/alternative gender).

Queer theory wants to target children to push and transgress ordinary boundaries of childhood and the child body, and to invite and stimulate children with sexual ideas (of themselves) and others (e.g., their teachers’ sexualities).

In the good old days this might be called grooming, or sexual abuse.
It seems the Scottish Government are dropping the ball all over the place with politicians’ sexual and financial indiscretions (e.g., Natalie McGarry, Derek Mackay), child welfare concerns in care homes, the pushing of sexual and age appropriate boundaries in children’s education, and an arrogance that they can override parental concerns or consent/consultation on these issues.

The failed Named Person Scheme was perhaps a warning alarm that all was not well.

Perhaps all these issues point to the glaring truth that the current administration is in its death throes.

People are waking up; but they need to wake up much more to the sinister nature and facts of Queer theory and gender ideology that the Scottish government want to teach children.

I urge all parents and people concerned with children’s education and welfare to read “Interrogating heteronormativity in primary schools.”

There is no time like the present.

www.thehighlandtimes.com/news/2020/02/13/queer-theory-in-scottish-schools/

  • - - - - -

Current Mumsnet thread (there are earlier ones about No Outsiders too):

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3858425-Andrew-Moffatt-No-Outsiders-online-lessons

2ndStar · 15/04/2020 18:56

I think we do need more representation everywhere of different family structures, single people, women and men in jobs/hobbies/caring roles which are thought of as being for the other sex, religions, races, nationalities. When you translate that to education it should be checked for being age appropriate. Which is about the details not the existence of it.

Children in multi-cultural cities will see a different day to day from those in rural villages and repeat for all the factors, that’s where a curriculum should broaden minds and understanding beyond what is local experience or family views.

If you live somewhere where everyone has a mummy, or a daddy, or both, you have to put effort it to expand that to two mummies, two daddies, lives with Gran etc education should be a part of that to make sure all children’s knowledge is widened.

But it absolutely should be age appropriate.

JellySlice · 15/04/2020 19:15

Absolutely. But what has any of that got to do with children's sexuality? From a child's point of view, what has any of that got to do with sexuality?

Why should children be gaslighted and brainwashed to validate people's 'identities'?

FloralBunting · 15/04/2020 19:23

BeetrootRocks, yes, I think my personal view is that the human species, for whatever evolutionary reason, developed with a significant proportion of it's members capable of metaphysical belief. I think a significant proportion don't have this, and I suspect it's a quirk similar to left handed/right handedness. I think it probably serves as part of a society cohesiveness mechanism, another form of tribal/family groupings.

Now, as humans move into more secular settings, this innate religiosity some of them possess will sometimes find very different outlets, and it's my contention that a lot of what we see in various identity based movements is an outworking of this.

To be clear, I'm not making any negative judgements on being religious or being atheist - I'm simply observing a human behaviour that may be channelled differently in certain circumstances.

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BeetrootRocks · 15/04/2020 19:28

Yes I would go with that floral

Plus for younger people the standard normal desire to be different, to be in tribes, to see themselves as breaking boundaries etc etc

And then layered on, with the internet etc, really extreme ideas about make and female looks, sexual behaviour etc etc

RumbaswithPumbaas · 15/04/2020 20:17

Definitely agree with the above, the internet puts all that young adult exploration of self/finding your place stuff on a new level. So many say finding a community of people who ‘get them’ when they felt all alone is a life line, but on the flip side, it can disengage people from real life, turn off any desire to find common ground with those who don’t fit their niche viewpoint and can open the door for grooming into more extreme ways of thinking. I’m sure this has been well documented with religious/political radicalisation, I almost wonder whether the extremes of gender ideology has some parallels with other forms of extremism.

It also saddens me that the internet exposes people’s tender feelings to the opinions of others who would feel no compulsion to be kind and often set out to deliberately troll or pile on them. I know there are probably lots of people who would think/say things about me that I would rather not hear, but I would have no reason to know their thoughts or opinions if I didn’t publish myself to the world online like many people now do.

I think maturity (and age) bring about a degree of gradual letting go of caring so much about what other people see on the outside - embracing being invisible perhaps. But having resources of self worth to draw on (faith or otherwise) definitely reduces our reliance on the fickle and empty illusion of the approval/validation of others.

DidoLamenting · 15/04/2020 20:36

As a person of faith myself, I have often wondered why so many people abhor the idea of a divine being giving them life and purpose, particularly the idea of a prescribed moral framework/rule book or ‘law’ that they must (or try to) follow

I find religious faith completely incomprehensible. I would turn this the other way round- I I can't begin to imagine believing in a god or why one needs one.

RumbaswithPumbaas

Everyone has faith in something

I don't. We are born, we live, we die. We will all make some impression on the world- some for the better, some for the worse. We live on, only in the sense of the impression we leave.

DidoLamenting · 15/04/2020 20:40

MoleSmokes

I did not know any of that about Harvey Milk.