Covid-19 and purity spirals

[DreadPirateLuna]

Covid-19 is a very serious illness which threatens our most vulnerable and risks overwhelming the NHS. We should all do what we can to flatten the curve and save lives. People whose behaviour risks lives (e.g. urban residents traveling out to holiday homes in rural communities) should face criticism and sanctions.

However, I can't help feeling that some of the outrage at some behaviours is less about reducing the spread and more about getting caught in a "purity spiral".

Take all the outrage about people in parks. Fresh air and sunshine is good for physical and mental health, it improves the immune system which is particularly important during an epidemic! Many urban residents have no other source of open space except the local park. The ability to get outside can be lifesaving for victims of DV. Risks of contracting disease are very low if you keep your distance from others outside your household.

Yet I've seen photos of walkers and family groups in parks, keeping far away from others, but accused of selfishness and killing the elderly and disrespecting the NHS. Parks in London have been closed, meaning more congestion of other areas and residents confined to homes, which is damaging for reasons outlined above.

And it's usually (though not exclusively) women and esp mothers who get blamed. Those selfish Karens and their broods.

A more sensible solution would be to allow restricted access to the parks. Maybe allow only locals in nearby flats without gardens. But it seems we're not doing sensible these days.

You said no one is putting anyone in danger so unless there is no risk then of course you are putting someone in danger because you don't know if you are incubating it do you?

But I'd still be in the shop if I didn't know, to get my non specified essentials, whether or not I also bought a bottle of wine. So its a personally acceptable risk to me to get one, and not any of your business.

Go for a walk if you want, Hooves. No one here will call the police.

I'm going to say this as gently and kindly as I can. At this point I think counselling (it's possible to do it via Skype in some cases) rather than Mumsnet may be what you need, Hooves, because the things you are saying and the level of emotional investment you're showing are not rational or healthy. That's not an attack, it's concern.

I agree, and I'm going to stop responding.

By seconds.

For you maybe buying one bottle of wine.

But you're advocating being allowed to buy what you like so, in my store, you can come in wander down the crockery aisle, then the bedding, then home furnishings, then have a look for s dvd, then buy some make up, then go.upstsirs and walk around the clothing department and have a good look at everything, then go and buy a coffee machine, then go back downstairs and start food shopping - hardly an extra a few seconds is it?

TheProdigalKittensReturn

I don't need counseling. I need to see my children. That's what I need but that's not going to happen while selfish twonks insist on their civil right to do fifty mile bike rides, sunbathe or refurnish their house is it?

On the shopping trip before last, in addition to what I think most people would consider essentials (chicken, rice, pasta, tomatoes, soy sauce, olive oil, bread, cheese, etc) I also picked up a small cake, and a pack of 3 chocolate chip cookies, and some caramel chocolate eggs. That added how much time to my shop? Under a minute, maybe? Additional coronavirus risk - negligible, unless all the people already infected who had been in the shop and touching things only touched things with sugar in them, and were only breathing in the baked goods aisle.

I know it's a scary time, but refusing to approach things rationally isn't helping anyone.

Go for a walk if you want, Hooves.

Funnily enough I don't want to risk catching this and dying. Strange huh? So, as much as I want to I'm actually able to restrain myself

You're right, Eresh. Responding is just feeding whatever is going on there, and we should all stop.

Our local superstores are still selling everything. Clothes, electricals, non food - all still open

Where do you live? I live in a major tourist city , city. Nothing is open apart from foodshops , chemists and a very limited number of post offices. And so far as foodshops the luxury home baking/ luxury chocolate shops luxury coffee and tea merchants aren't open.

In a London borough. All of our supermarkets are trading exactly as normal. I can't believe yours aren't?

TheProdigalKittensReturn

But you have been arguing for people to be able to buy whatever the shops are selling. Then you say well, buying s couple of extra treats won't make any difference. But you weren't originally arguing for people to be limited to a couple of extra treats. You think it's fine for people to buy whatever is for sale - which might well add on an extra 30 minutes to the shopping trip

Once again.

"You're right, Eresh. Responding is just feeding whatever is going on there, and we should all stop."

The only mixed use supermarket we have used is M & S - only the foodhall is accessible.

I know it's a scary time, but refusing to approach things rationally isn't helping anyone.

Have you seen the advice in the shielding letter? Don't go outside of your house, pack a bag ready for hospital, don't sleep in the same bed as your partner, eat your meals in a separate room, use a separate bathroom or ensure its cleaned before you use it, limit time spent in the same room as other members of the household and stay two metres apart at all times - is it any wonder that I am hypervigilant about this? Apparently I'm at risk from eating my dinner in the same room as my husband but according to you lot there's no risk in going to the shops for a good browse.

DidoLamenting

We've got the four big supermarkets here. All selling everything they normally would

but according to you lot there's no risk in going to the shops for a good browse

I'm sorry to hear of your situation but I don't think anyone has said that.

Hooves I know I've been quite snarky with you past couple of days but I hope you realise it's not meant in a bitchy or cruel way. I always admire the women who argue alone against the storm on social media - even if I disagree with them. Having everyone 'attack' you is psychologically damaging I know from my own experience. We are all dealing with this crisis in our own way and I think many of us have just become cartoon versions of ourselves. I have gone argumentative and crack inappropriate jokes. You are doing your thing.

People not following rules will lead to an extended lockdown. More time away from family and trapped at home. However, we have just had to change our entire culture over night. It's against our human nature to self-isolate. I didn't realise how much of my behaviour was driven by a hidden urge to connect. Go to the cinema to watch a film; watch a gig; prey at Church; work put at the gym.. On the surface we are just enjoying our hobbies but on a deeper level we just wanted to be near to other people - even strangers. Humans crave connection.

You come from a good place. you want to be able to connect with your loved ones and feel safe. Boris Johnson and the powers that be want us to turn on each other and blame us rather than them. The government has mishandled this situation. Globalization has created the conditions under which Corona thrives. It's natural to look for something to blame but the woman going to the shops to buy hair conditioner is not to blame for the lockdown. We have to adapt our lifestyles overnight and it's not easy. Lay the blame where it belongs. It's a systemic crisis - no individual is to blame for this situation, not Mrs Brown at 59 who buys wine with her weekly shop.

I have been on what feels like about a million coronavirus threads over the past few weeks and I haven't seen anyone say anything about wanting to go to the shops for a nice browse around.

And I asked hours ago how I could possibly put someone at risk by lifting something off a shelf and putting it into my trolley, when I'm already standing in that aisle because of the queuing system and you conveniently ignored the question because it doesn't fit your narrative about selfish shoppers spending hours browsing.

I’ve explained why walking in the park can be safer than walking in the street. In the street I have to step into the road to avoid oncoming pedestrians. In the park I can step on to some grass. If you’re familiar with Seven Sisters Road you’ll understand why I’d choose the park.

Boris Johnson and the powers that be want us to turn on each other and blame us rather than them

That really is neither true nor helpful.

And this is what I mean, and has been the whole thread in a nutshell. Someone points out that something isn't really particularly risky, or no more so than some other thing, or asks a question, and gets back wild exaggeration and angry accusations. To which they respond with eye rolling and mockery, because what was said was silly, and then the cyle repeats. The cycle can only stop if someone breaks it, so I'm suggesting that we break it at the point where someone has said "why is my taking a bottle of wine off the shelf when I'm there already?" and they get back "so you intend to browse for an hour and then go sunbathe and that's why we're all going to die".

isabellerossignol

But of course people are. You might not be going for a browse but many people are. I really can't get why some of you are justifying being able to buy whatever you want in s shop and simultaneously saying you aren't suggesting people browse. Have you not been into a shop before? How many times do you see people go directly to the aisles that they need, pick up immediately what they want and then leave?

As for how is someone at risk from lifting an item off the shelf - from the time taken to walk to the shelf and select the item ( extra shoppers that they encounter during that time) and from the risk of touching objects that might be contaminated (the more items you pick up the greater the chance one of them is infected).

Mrsfrumble

You might think walking in a park is lower risk but it isn't no risk is it?

DJLippy

Thank you. I appreciate you saying that

TheProdigalKittensReturn

Because what you are saying is that you think what you are doing is ok and no one must pass comment on it, but it's fine for you to judge other people who are doing more than you.

You've argued all day that people are fine to buy whatever a shop sells. Now it turns out what you're really saying is "it's fine to buy a bottle of wine". If you're ok with people looking around the shop and buying what they want that's browsing isn't it? How can you be against browsing but ok with people looking around and buying what they want?

Look, again, as kindly as this can be said - this is ridiculous. I am not having this conversation with you, and I don't think anyone else should anymore either.