Feminism and mothers of sons

[DangerCat01]

Hi everyone,
I’ve been having a touch time and it’s making me wonder whether feminism or equality will never be possible because women give birth to boys whom they obviously love and these boys become men.
I’m the mother of one daughter whom I adore and would give my life to so presumably mothers of sons feel the same?

In the last month I’ve lost a big groups of friends and been dismissed from the Women’s Network at work for being a ‘terf’ and I’m wondering if the fight is worth it. Everyone seems so against me. Even my own mother and my sister seem to worship their sons more than their daughters. It’s weird. And creepy. I feel so sad and confused.

In my experience it’s the mothers of daughters who are least feminist and more likely to propagate outdated stereotypes or get angry when the girls don’t live up to some kind of feminine ideal. The mothers of sons just get on with things and most of them have raised lovely boys / men

That's a rather sweeping generalisation.....I have a daughter and two sons, and now a granddaughter......They are all individuals and really quite different from each other.......my relationship with each is different, because each child is different.

I do agree some women like the idea of having a daughter - because they imagine a 'girls together' relationship......remaining emotionally close, and doing girly things together.......but there are as many women who are not particularly 'girly' who just seek to value their child for their own uniqueness.

Out of my three children - all now adult.......the girl was actually the wildest and most 'difficult' to handle...whereas the boys were really very easy. My granddaughter is really quite 'easy' too......and has experimented with 'girliness' ( she's 5), but a month or so ago she asked to have her hair cut short.......it really suits her personality.....She's definitely exploring and experimenting with wider social ideas around gender at present.......and I'm happy for her to explore the full range if she feels moved to.

I think real feminism means it doesn't matter whether you have a boy or girl?

I don’t understand why and wondered if it is because they have sons

There could be something in that...but equally it could just be that they are more sheep like than you.

I trying to think that maybe if I had a son, I might have been one of those women who pop on a rape thread and bang on about false accusations. Or maybe I’d insist that my 10 year old should be allowed in the women’s changing room or whatever

I have sons and certainly don't think or feel like that.

I trying to think that maybe if I had a son, I might have been one of those women who pop on a rape thread and bang on about false accusations. Or maybe I’d insist that my 10 year old should be allowed in the women’s changing room or whatever

Actually, I hate to say this, but there may be something in this. But I don't think it's universal by any means. I'm not sure if it starts from sexism originally. Is it actually at least partially about how overprotective of children we've become, preventing them from growing up?

So a woman like this, who happens to have sons, is outraged that her 8 year old needs to use the men's bathroom or changing room and immediately goes into defensive mode, "my darling DS would never look at women in the changing room/ my darling DS needs to be protected too, why does no one care about him?" And perhaps over time this goes further and becomes so ingrained that the idea that boys and men need to actually take responsibility for things disappears and there's this new concept of boys being unfairly discriminated against blah blah blah.

Certainly, I believe strongly that we're doing our children no favours by not encouraging independence. And it does seem to be the boys in particular, so to go against my original point in that case, there IS sexism. Girls seem to be encouraged from a young age to be "helpers" in the home, to learn to help make food/clean etc. But boys aren't encouraged to do these things neither are they encouraged to be independent in other ways in case some harm comes to them.

I got into an awkward conversation with another mum a few months ago. We were talking about the challenges of deciding when to let your children walk home from school etc. Her 10 year old was starting to do it. And I made a comment about how it's terrifying but actually, I do worry more about the girls because they face the outright predators but also the day to day misogyny and ingrained sexism that means they're as likely to experience harassment from other teenagers/ men or boys who are technically "nice guys". I could tell she was very upset that I was daring to suggest that her son was safer walking home than a girl would be.

@Clymene I would class some of them as feminist if not all its just that their life experience is offering them a different point of view.

Saying your son is at university and calls you to say hes been accused of sexually assaulting a women and he denies it, its a he said she said case. Your point of view up until now is that he's a decent person and this would be out of character. So wouldnt you believe your son over a stranger? That's what I think my friends feel.

I think that the other aspect is that fathers don’t seem to be the same for their daughters so it doesn’t balance out.

Massive generalisation I know, but this is just my experience and the numbers of dads who just fuck off.

AnneShirley, you are spot on! Thanks for helping unscramble my head.

Glad to help
I have both sons and a daughter and do my best to bring them all up with a feminist viewpoint. They're teens now and my boys, so far, have shown a respectful attitude towards females.

If anyone calls you the slur 'TERF', it shows they're a belligerent, nasty piece of work who wants to tear real, biological women (who were BORN women) down (I refuse to use the label cis) in order to give bio males even more rights than bio women. There's nothing equal or feminist about it. Though it may hurt at the moment, you are absolutely better off without these morons.

My sister's sister in law proudly announces that she is now a terf (so nya nya nya), She is a nurse, so kinda knows about biology and stuff...

It's an interesting starting point OP, I get what you're saying, although I can't say I've experienced anything similar.

I have an older sister and I'm my mother's favourite, not fair but true, sadly. It damaged our relationship until recently. Our father treated us equally but my sister held our parents at a distance and so I've grown up closer to my parents, to the point that my sister wouldn't spend family holidays with us in her mid-teens.

I have one son, he will be an only child. He is being raised to view men and women as equal partners who both work and share in running the home and we each spend equal time with him playing, if anything his Dad is more involved at the moment as our son isn't in child care.

I challenge every tiny little bit of gender stereotyping that pops up, he has recently rejected playing with his friends who are girls but we go on play dates with them anyway. I don't think I ask him to talk about his feelings any more than I would a daughter but I hope to maintain a strong, close relationship with him as he grows into a man, which is a long way off tbf.

It's probably a coincidence that the friends who have rejected you might be mothers of boys and so come from a different perspective 'my son is lovely, not all men are rapists' or something like that (on the false accusations point) but it's become confused with something around wanting to protect daughters from men. I make no excuses for them, they don't sound like very nice people to have dropped you for holding that view.

I hope this helps, you sound like you have a lot going on in your head so hopefully this is helping to clear it a bit xx

Yes very helpful thank you.

I think a lot of parents struggle to acknowledge their DC for who they are; flaws and all. I think for many they're of the 'sun shines out their nethers' sort who won't acknowledge the possibility of their DC being wrong or making shitty choices, and once those protective 'not my child' behaviours become ingrained it's so hard to let them go even when they're adults.

No idea if I'm right (and I love my boys without a moments doubt - they are incredible) but they are flawed, they are human and they fuck up. So rather than always leap to their defence and attack anyone nearby, I try very hard to be rational and help them learn from and acknowledge their mistakes rather than pretend they've not happened.

So far (and DS1 is 14 - which could be a difficult time) they're good kids. They are honest, they are decent and they challenge other people's nonsense. They're not interested in 'x is for girls' so far and I think that's because DH and I work hard to challenge that in our own lives. They're also honest about their mistakes and own themselves fully, which makes me happier than if they lied to hide their mistakes.

You haven't lost friends - you've lost people that weren't worth holding on to. It feels awful, and it is awful to be attacked in that way, but not everyone loves their children to the point of absolute madness, not everyone is unreasonable because they have boys. You've just come across crappy people who want to make you feel bad about your views because you don't agree with theirs.

I do love the men in my life but not in that fierce maternal way

My only child is a son. I really don't know what you mean by "fierce maternal way"

I don't imagine for one minute his father loves him in a "fierce paternal way"

Don’t you?

I thought lots of mothers have that animalistic type love for their children in that I’d protect my Dd to the death. I’d die for her. I wouldn’t die for my DP or my Dad.

I don’t know how fathers feel because I’m not one and my ex left when she was a baby.

Do you really not have a different kind of love for your children?

I genuinely assumed it was a hormonal thing.

I think it has more to do with their parents than their children.
Unpacking the conditioning is a job of work that a lot of people prefer not to do.

I am not sure I understand your question OP. I will say that there was precisely one imstance, where I was made to feel that being the mother of a boy and being a feminist was in conflict (yes, this is a tangent):

Julie Bindel (I believe) wrote a very informative article about a village in Africa, where only women are allowed - a shelter for women who had often lived through abhorrent war-related male violence - an impressive project. The article stated that women could live there with their children, but males over 12 had to leave. Which made absolute sense. I praised the project in my comment and inquired, what the typical solution for those male children was (relatives?, or are boys self reliant early in this culture?). I figured, this might be Important for the mothers‘ peace of mind.

My comment (and I was not alone) got censored, because I was ‚centering males‘. I was bummed. And as the mother of a son I, frankly, to this day cannot see, how you can divorce that question from the peace of mind mothers of sons have in these communities.

But why would mothers of sons deny biological reality or deny sex based oppression, which is what the ‚TERF!‘ finger pointing boils down to?

Having a son and a daughter informs my feminism. I once saw a poster that said:

"Do you want to prepare your daughter for life in the working world?"

The punchline was "Pay her less pocket money than her brother"

I can teach my son to be a good man. I can teach my daughter how to be assertive, independent and more.

Feminists should bring up men who make a difference in the world.